The romance of Madeleine Force and JohnJacob Astor


Jim Kalafus

Member
Dec 3, 2000
6,113
36
398
>Ava was a mega-star, celebrated the world over for her beauty and elegance.

Madeleine had much fertile ground upon which to work:

http://www.mcmahanphoto.com/lc1941--mrs-ava-lowle-willing-astor-portrait-photo.html

Ava being a much more handsome man than either of her husbands. Being very wealthy allows you to look like a man in drag and still be described as "world class beauty." Over time, Madeleine COULD have played on Ava's fading looks and questionable morals, and made public comments such as "Why, is that Julian Eltinge?... oh, sorry, Ava!" and "Ava, darling! Vincent is the spitting image of his father! And Alice is the spitting image of HER father! Did the two men ever meet?" until Ava's questionable lustre began to tarnish. People who felt competitive with, or threatened by, Mrs. Astor The First would have used this to knock her down to size, even if they didn't really accept Madeleine. It is still a (sadly) common tactic amongst those who really SHOULD get a job; the "using" of the second wife to stick the knife into the bitchy first wife. As many a Doctor's unpleasant, arrogant, aging spouse in "My Corner Of the World" has discovered upon being dumped for a less saggy, newer model.

OR...

a better course of action....

At the risk of bordering on flippant, Madeleine COULD have followed the path of several of the Wealthy Titanic Widows, whose lives seem to have been enhanced by losing the excess baggage of their husbands. Eleanor Widener and Emily Ryerson come to mind ~ they became interesting people with almost indecent haste, after becoming widowed.
happy.gif


OR....

Madeleine could have looked at her fellow female travelers who, unlike Ava, amounted to something worthwhile (Dr Leader. Mrs Candee. Lucile. The late Mrs. Corbett. The late Mrs. Carter and so many others) and opted to DO SOMETHING with her life.

But, ultimately, "Only one thing we can say for certain. The Titanic disaster ruined her life." is questionable. MADELEINE ruined Madeleine's life. When I think of her, and her vapid predecessor, Ava, what comes to mind is:


I met a traveller from an antique land
Who said: Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert. Near them on the sand,
Half sunk, a shatter'd visage lies, whose frown
And wrinkled lip and sneer of cold command
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamp'd on these lifeless things,
The hand that mock'd them and the heart that fed.
And on the pedestal these words appear:
"My name is Ozymandias, king of kings:
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

the sole lasting achievent of either woman being the fiasco playing out in the NYC courts as we speak, amongst the spawn of the litter of Vincent's loins.
 
J

Janicole

Guest
This is what I got from my research of Madeleine. Excuse any typos I'm writing this in a hurry.

I don't know if it were just how it was done in those times to barry her next to her first husband, but she was buried next to him, rather then William who unless that search was wrong had died before her, or in another grave entirely, which I would think that if the family hated her so much and thought of her as a gold digging whore they would've probably fought tooth and nail against it.

As for the scandal, from my research the scandal was because John wasn't allow to marry again after his divorce from Ava and Ava was a very love member in society and she had said that she actually found John Astor "repulsive" and said that she'd only married him for his name when she got divorced. As for adultery, the only adultery I know of were the rumors that John's daughter that he had with Ava wasn't really his child and that it was some other guy I can't remember the name of. From my research it doesn't look like John and Madeleine started dated until after his divorce from Ava. (Who may I add didn't even attend the John's funeral)

I haven't had the time to read very long into this but it looks like a lot of people don't know much about John and Madeleine's son together. I don't know much but from what I do know of John Jacob Astor V and Vincent did NOT get along. Vincent was a very strange man to society and they seemed to only put up with him because he was an Astor and was so rich and Vincent didn't like John V. He started rumors about him, that John V wasn't really John Jacob's child and so on and so forth and the insults went back and forth. John V was quoted as saying "if you really want to get to know your family, try sharing an inheritance with them" or something along those lines (I don't know the EXACT wording). John V wanted has inheritance and Vincent didn't want to give it to him and didn't think he deserved it, but that is all I really know about John V. Vincent on the other hand...there's a lot written about him...

But honestly I don't think Madeleine was using John for his money. From my research, when she got off the boat she kind of fell apart and kept to herself the rest of the trip. The doctor said she had "taken ill" and when she got off the Carpathia she was said to have collapsed with grief and had to be helped to the car and to her families house, where she remained "ill" and didn't talk to the press for a long time. I even read somewhere that when the ship was going down she's thought she heard John calling for her and stood and screaming that she was coming. I don't know how true that is. It could've just been a rumor, but from my research for actual events rather then rumors she seemed to react like a woman that was truly grieving and even Vincent who really didn't like Madeleine that well from what I've read and her became a lot closer for a little way through this tragedy.

From what I've read Ava was kind of a b!tch to both John and Vincent and neither were very happy in that marriage. When he met and married Madeleine though despite the scandals he seemed to be really happy and really in love with her and it sounded like he finally found someone that actually got him (he was only one that the community just really did not get). I honestly don't get the impression of a gold digger from her in my research. I think that whether you believe it or not she actually loved him and he really loved her even with the age difference.
 
Dec 5, 2008
189
5
123
Although I am a supporter of the (admittedly small) membership of "Madeleine was not a whore!" sanction of Titanic studiers, I just thought I'd point out something in your statement that I completely disagree with.

>>But honestly I don't think Madeleine was using John for his money. From my research, when she got off the boat she kind of fell apart and kept to herself the rest of the trip. The doctor said she had "taken ill" and when she got off the Carpathia she was said to have collapsed with grief and had to be helped to the car and to her families house, where she remained "ill" and didn't talk to the press for a long time.<<

Again, although I am a supporter of Madeleine honestly caring for JJ, this really doesn't support that fact that she loved him. It certainly doesn't mean she didn't, but she wouldn't have had to be in love with him to react in such a way.

Whether she was "in" love with him or not, he was still her husband, her supporter, her provider and the father of her child; she was now alone, pregnant, terrified, traumatized, no doubt suffering (along with everyone else on that ship) of survivors guilt, and just sat in a lifeboat all night listening to 1500 people (including friends and her husband) die. I know I would have been depressed and introverted as well, whether I was truly in love with my husband or not.

>>I even read somewhere that when the ship was going down she's thought she heard John calling for her and stood and screaming that she was coming.<<

I don't know enough about her to say for sure, and I trust if I'm incorrect someone else on ET will point it out, however, this sounds incredibly fictionalized to me, in every possible way. It seems almost certainly sensationalized by either the press or simply an over-zealous Titanic hobbiest (like the 'past-life diaries'), and I have never heard anything of the like before (and it almost certainly would have gone down in the headlines if it had taken place), and it seems very out of Madeleine's character to me.

I could be wrong, but personally, it sounds very false to me.

Anyways, those are just my opinions; feel free to disagree, and in case no one else has said it, welcome to ET!
happy.gif
 
J

Janicole

Guest
Thank you.

>>I don't know enough about her to say for sure, and I trust if I'm incorrect someone else on ET will point it out, however, this sounds incredibly fictionalized to me, in every possible way. It seems almost certainly sensationalized by either the press or simply an over-zealous Titanic hobbiest (like the 'past-life diaries'), and I have never heard anything of the like before (and it almost certainly would have gone down in the headlines if it had taken place), and it seems very out of Madeleine's character to me.<<

I said earlier that I didn't know how true it was. It did seem really out of character for Madeleine so I usually don't think anything of it. I'm skeptical of most claims (like someone dressing up as a woman to get into the lifeboat (there was absolutely no proof of it, that I've found, no group of people from any one boat said "it was him" they just all pointed fingers at each other and almost every 1st class man that survived the sinking's reputation was ruined because everyone was blaming all of them)I think it was just gossip and people looking for people to "blame" in one way of another and the "suicide" of an officer I think is a really bad rumor. I could see where it started (a little 8,9 year old boy went the Capt. Rostron and said "Captain Smith put a gun to his head and then fell down" then it's goes from that to basically like most rumors, turns into a game of telephone (if you remember playing it as a kid it never turned out how it started) and from then it turned to Wilde, then Murdoch, then Moody, then back to Murdoch, everyone had their own idea of who it was), but I believe it was another false rumor that in the end ruined some of the officers reputations because of it (I can type out my whole theory and how I came to the conclusion but that's another story)). However, if the story I had read about Madeleine was in fact true I figured it would be a good clue as to how she felt about him so I put it in but made sure to state that I don't know if it's true or not.

Honestly, I don't go by the past life people. They are sometimes entertaining when you come across one of their websites and some things just annoyingly ridiculous, but that wasn't off of one of their pages. I forgot where I saw that I've looked in so many books and on so many sites it's hard pin down sources.

>> Again, although I am a supporter of Madeleine honestly caring for JJ, this really doesn't support that fact that she loved him. It certainly doesn't mean she didn't, but she wouldn't have had to be in love with him to react in such a way.

Whether she was "in" love with him or not, he was still her husband, her supporter, her provider and the father of her child; she was now alone, pregnant, terrified, traumatized, no doubt suffering (along with everyone else on that ship) of survivors guilt, and just sat in a lifeboat all night listening to 1500 people (including friends and her husband) die. I know I would have been depressed and introverted as well, whether I was truly in love with my husband or not.<<

I see where you're coming from. I've heard of other women that had lost their husbands not as bent out of shape over it and that re-married shortly after. So I was meaning that to show that at least Madeleine seemed to really grieve the loss of her husband and waited some years before re-marrying.

I do also think it was cute that one of the people that went to the wedding said Colonel Astor practically jumped to take her hand when she came down the aisle and everyone in the newspapers I saw were talking about how obvious it was he was smitten by her and how in love they were. I don't know, based on their actions together and different quotes by him, her parents, and other members of society that knew them they seemed to be in love.
 

amanda

Member
Jan 21, 1998
18
0
211
Hello,
Can any of you tell me what Miss Force and Mr. Astor were doing in Bar Harbor Maine when they met? And where did they meet? I have looked and looked and can't figure it out. If you don't know for sure, what do you think they would have been doing? Thank you for your help!!

[Moderator's note: This message, originally a separate thread, has been moved to this pre-existing thread addressing the same subject. MAB]
 

Similar threads

Similar threads