1. Welcome to Encyclopedia Titanica
    or subscribe for unlimited access to ET! You can also login with , or !
    Dismiss Notice

The Rothschilds

Discussion in 'First Class Passengers' started by Arun Vajpey, Feb 17, 2019.

  1. Arun Vajpey

    Arun Vajpey Member

    I find it surprising that there is so little mention of Martin and Elizabeth Rothschild in any Titanic literature or for that matter here on ET forums. Depending on which book you read, most of the other rich people like the Astors, Thayers, Wideners, Ryersons, Carters, Guggenheim etc are covered in some detail but there is very little mention about the Rothschilds. About the only thing that finds a mention is that Elizabeth Rothschild managed to smuggle her pet dog on board Lifeboat #6.

    Was it because of the Jewish (him) and Catholic (her) union that both groups ignored them or something? Who did they share dining tables with or socilaise? Does anyone know?
     
  2. Kas01

    Kas01 Member

    I'd strongly doubt it was due to anti-Semitism. Ben Guggenheim and the Strauses were both Jewish, and there's no shortage of literature, mythologizing or otherwise, about either Guggenheim or the Strauses. It may simply have been due to class differences between the two (Elizabeth Rothschild being from a working-class Irish family and marrying her employer).

    As for who they may have socialized with, I believe people from either the Rochester or Binghamton area would have been likely candidates, considering Martin was buried in Watkins Glen. Further south may have been a stretch but Scranton or Wilkes-Barre, PA were along the same stretches of railroad, so Dr. Frauenthal might have also been in that circle.
     
    Arun Vajpey likes this.
  3. Arun Vajpey

    Arun Vajpey Member

    I was also thinking on the same lines. Majority of the really rich people on the Titanic were Americans and in those times there was a strong Jewish representation among them, as you say the Stausses, Guggenheim etc. I was not thinking about anti-semetism but any objections over a Jewish-Catholic union given the time; and yes, the perceived class differences
    .
    Wasn't there a Second Class couple in a similar situation? I think it was Mathilde and Leopold Weisz; not sure if Mathilde was Catholic, but she certainly attended the hymn singing session on Sunday night while her Jewish husband was strolling on the deck.
     
  4. Kas01

    Kas01 Member

    Pretty sure Mrs. Weisz was Catholic. I don't know when Notre Dame des Neiges opened for non-Catholic burials but I'm assuming it was some time before her death in October of '53. There wasn't as much of an age or social difference though outside of the interfaith marriage.
     
    Arun Vajpey likes this.
  5. Arun Vajpey

    Arun Vajpey Member

    The Rothschilds travelled a lot and their steward Frederick Dent Ray reportedly knew them from the Olympic. Ray, who survived, reportedly met Martin Rothschild near the latter's cabin after he had safely seen his wife off in Lifeboat #6. Ray and Rothschild went up to the boat deck, the steward going to help with starboard lifeboats #9 and #11 and in the process presumably getting separated form Rothschild. I don't think any survivor recalled seeing Martin Rothschild on deck during the last 50 minutes of sinking.
     
  6. Arun Vajpey

    Arun Vajpey Member

    Now that is interesting, especially (unless I am mistaken) the Frauenthals were also Jewish. Dr Henry Frauenthal and his wife - possibly also the brother Isaac Frauenthal - had travelled on the Olympic before just like the Rothschilds but might not have been the same voyage. Even so, I expect that they might have known or become acquainted with the Rothschilds on board the Titanic and - like you presume - might have socialised on board.

    If that was the case, their fate after the Titanic struck the iceberg was quite different. All three Frauenthals got away on an early lifeboat, the #5. Steward Ray was involved in helping with the starboard lifeboats even before he met Martin Rothschild and so he might have been there when the Frauenthals escaped. But Martin Rothschild saw his wife onto Lifeboat #6, which was lowered at around 1:10 am by Lightoller and then went back to his cabin where he met Ray soon afterwards.
     
  7. At that level of society I don't think it was anything about religion. It's more about what board room's you belong to than what church you attend. I don't think anybody was going to ignore the Rothchilds. It could have been as simple as the were just enjoying being with each other more and were just chilling out so to speak.
     
    Arun Vajpey likes this.
  8. Arun Vajpey

    Arun Vajpey Member

    Could be. Perhaps they were too self-conscious themselves of Elizabeth Rothschild's working class background and avoided the Astors, Thayers, Carters etc in case someone passed a derogatory remark? Mind you, I'd rather socilaise with Elizabeth Rothschild any day rather than Madeline Astor.

    BTW, I doubt if Martin Rothschild attended any church. ;)
     
  9. I have no way of knowing of course but I get the feeling Elizabeth Rothschilds would probably have had no problem hanging out with Molly Brown. Both coming up thru the ranks so to speak. But when Titanic sunk she had been married to Martin R. for 17 years so maybe she fully integrated into that part of society and was comfortable with it. I don't know.
     
    Arun Vajpey likes this.
  10. Arun Vajpey

    Arun Vajpey Member

    You could be right. Mind you, there were plenty of unconventional alliances on the Titanic: JJ Astor with a wife younger than one of his sons, Guggenheim's mistress and of course, the Rothschilds. By 1912 Elizabeth Rothschild was probably more at home in that sort of society than some of the younger ones born into it.
     
  11. Kas01

    Kas01 Member

    Last I checked, only Vincent counted unless COL Astor had a patent for an ultrasound machine that we don't know about.

    As far as New York City is concerned, though, and yes, I know it's impolitic, you really can't get anywhere worthwhile in NYC if you're an anti-Semite, or at the very least quite damn good at hiding it. That's true now, and it was no less true in mid-April of 1912.