Hildur Panula-Heinonen
Member
I have read on three sources that the large third-class Sage family had lost two other children in infancy. I was wondering if anyone had an information on these children, such as possible years of birth or names.
The Two Other Children of The Sage Family
- Thread starter Hildur Panula-Heinonen
- Start date
Karina Mason
Member
I have looked at the 1911 census for the Sage family, and it shows that they had nine children in total with nine alive and none dead. Where did you read about them losing children? I would be interested in looking at it.
I have added the census to their biography, it is just waiting to be approved.
If you want to see the census image, I can email it to you.
I have added the census to their biography, it is just waiting to be approved.
If you want to see the census image, I can email it to you.
Hildur Panula-Heinonen
Member
It's says so on the father's ET page. I think they were both born between 1900-1910.
Karina Mason
Member
I just looked and you are right, I am sorry. I have read the Sage biographies before and I don't remember seeing it.
The 1911 census was filled in by John Sage himself, and is signed by him. I doubt he forgot that two children died, so I am wondering if it was a mistake made by whoever wrote his biography.
Just out of interest, I looked for infant deaths in Hackney and in Norfolk, and these are the only ones I found:
Third quarter 1892
Sophia Sage, age 1, Hackney,
First quarter 1896
Dorothy May Sage, age 0, Hackney
Third quarter 1897
Albert Edward Sage, age 1, Hackney
I don't think any of these children are John and Annie's. Annie had children in 1891, 1892, 1894, 1895, 1897, 1899, 1901, 1904 and 1907.
They married in November 1890 so that leaves 1893, 1896, 1898, 1900, 1902, 1903, 1905 and 1906
I can't find deaths for any infants during these years in Hackney or in Norfolk.
If anyone can shed any light, I would be interested to know if these two Sage infants did exist or if it’s a mistake in research. Until I find evidence showing otherwise, I am inclined to believe my own (if quick) research into the matter and also the census document which was filled in by John Sage himself.
The 1911 census was filled in by John Sage himself, and is signed by him. I doubt he forgot that two children died, so I am wondering if it was a mistake made by whoever wrote his biography.
Just out of interest, I looked for infant deaths in Hackney and in Norfolk, and these are the only ones I found:
Third quarter 1892
Sophia Sage, age 1, Hackney,
First quarter 1896
Dorothy May Sage, age 0, Hackney
Third quarter 1897
Albert Edward Sage, age 1, Hackney
I don't think any of these children are John and Annie's. Annie had children in 1891, 1892, 1894, 1895, 1897, 1899, 1901, 1904 and 1907.
They married in November 1890 so that leaves 1893, 1896, 1898, 1900, 1902, 1903, 1905 and 1906
I can't find deaths for any infants during these years in Hackney or in Norfolk.
If anyone can shed any light, I would be interested to know if these two Sage infants did exist or if it’s a mistake in research. Until I find evidence showing otherwise, I am inclined to believe my own (if quick) research into the matter and also the census document which was filled in by John Sage himself.
Hildur Panula-Heinonen
Member
>>>I don't think any of these children are John and Annie's. Annie had children in 1891, 1892, 1894, 1895, 1897, 1899, 1901, 1904 and 1907.<<<
I think it is possible, looking at the dates and seeing Annie had a child every 1-2 years, up until 1901. I think the children were born one possibly around 1902-3 and the other (or both) after 1907. Considering Annie's age in 1912, i think it's more likely (if) she had them, they would have been born between 1902-1910, but that's just a thought.
Could there be a possibility of twins? As in both dying, or one dying and the other on Titanic? Hmmmm...
I think it is possible, looking at the dates and seeing Annie had a child every 1-2 years, up until 1901. I think the children were born one possibly around 1902-3 and the other (or both) after 1907. Considering Annie's age in 1912, i think it's more likely (if) she had them, they would have been born between 1902-1910, but that's just a thought.
Could there be a possibility of twins? As in both dying, or one dying and the other on Titanic? Hmmmm...
Karina Mason
Member
Hildur, I can see that your right, there is a possibility that Annie could have had two more children. If you manage to find out the names of these children, let me know, because I am interested.
I have (hopefully) inserted the 1911 census image for the Sage family. The handwriting you see is that of John Sage, as he himself filled out this page. You can see he put that they have nine children in total, with nine living and none dying. So unless he somehow forgot about his two deceased children, or there was some reason that he didn't want to mention them, I will believe John that there were no other children in the Sage family.
I have (hopefully) inserted the 1911 census image for the Sage family. The handwriting you see is that of John Sage, as he himself filled out this page. You can see he put that they have nine children in total, with nine living and none dying. So unless he somehow forgot about his two deceased children, or there was some reason that he didn't want to mention them, I will believe John that there were no other children in the Sage family.
Hildur Panula-Heinonen
Member
I have done some digging around and examining and i have placed the missing children's births to be either 1903, or late 1905-1906 and (doubtful due to Annie's age) late 1908. I do believe Thomas Henry was probably the last born child due to Annie being 39 when she had him.
If you look at the way i broke it down, maybe you can see where the dates came from.
I am giving Annie a year at least between the children, but am looking more interestingly at the longer years between her last three children.
Starting with Elizabeth Ada, born 9 nov 1901, i don't believe Annie would have had another child so soon after Ada in 1902. So we withdraw that year and move on to 1903.
1903 become a possibility.
Constance Gladys was born during the middle to late 1904, due to her not yet reaching her 8th birthday on Titanic. That does not make it impossible for Annie to have another child in 1905, but the children would be just over a year apart. I have taken it all in to consideration and i believe a child could have been born late 1905 or in 1906.
Then we have Thomas Henry born in middle to late 1907 (not yet 5 on Titanic), Annie could have been lucky to have a last child in 1908 or 1909, but she would be over 40 years old, so a little old to be having children.
So i believe the children were born in 1903 and/or late 1905 or 1906. A far reach for 1908.
What do you think?
If you look at the way i broke it down, maybe you can see where the dates came from.
I am giving Annie a year at least between the children, but am looking more interestingly at the longer years between her last three children.
Starting with Elizabeth Ada, born 9 nov 1901, i don't believe Annie would have had another child so soon after Ada in 1902. So we withdraw that year and move on to 1903.
1903 become a possibility.
Constance Gladys was born during the middle to late 1904, due to her not yet reaching her 8th birthday on Titanic. That does not make it impossible for Annie to have another child in 1905, but the children would be just over a year apart. I have taken it all in to consideration and i believe a child could have been born late 1905 or in 1906.
Then we have Thomas Henry born in middle to late 1907 (not yet 5 on Titanic), Annie could have been lucky to have a last child in 1908 or 1909, but she would be over 40 years old, so a little old to be having children.
So i believe the children were born in 1903 and/or late 1905 or 1906. A far reach for 1908.
What do you think?
Penny Cazaly
Member
I have been researching the Sages for several years. My research has indicated that John George Sage had no brothers or sisters - he was an only child. Father was George John Sage born Hackney ; his mother was Eliza Bullen from Norfolk. The Sages are quite difficult to work out; George John was one of several children born to Thomas Sage from St Albans Herts and Sarah Cooper from Hackney. Sarah died in 1850. Grandfather Thomas was quite a character; he married 3 times. John who died on the Titanic had uncles/aunts younger than himself. If anyone has any evidence against what I am saying, let me know. I have a lot more details, if anyone is interested. I have recently been in contact with Australian descendants of the Thomas Sage's 3rd marriage. Their ancestors emigrated to Australia in the same year as the Titanic and I do not think they knew that their nephews and cousins died in the tragedy. I have written this post as there seems to be a lot of conjecture about Sages and much of it seems to be unsubstantiated
Penny
Penny
Hi Penny.
I'm interested in the Sages as I am related via Annie's paternal great, great grandmother, Jeanne Levesque and am descended from Jeanne's brother, Jean Levesque and his wife, Anne Martel.
I'm also interested as a lot Huguenot settlers in England anglicised their names eg Le Sage became Lesage or dropped the first two letters altogether. If that happened with this Sage family, I could be related to them on both sides of the family.
If you would like more information on Annie and her relatives, I'd be happy to share with you.
Regards
Alison L
I'm interested in the Sages as I am related via Annie's paternal great, great grandmother, Jeanne Levesque and am descended from Jeanne's brother, Jean Levesque and his wife, Anne Martel.
I'm also interested as a lot Huguenot settlers in England anglicised their names eg Le Sage became Lesage or dropped the first two letters altogether. If that happened with this Sage family, I could be related to them on both sides of the family.
If you would like more information on Annie and her relatives, I'd be happy to share with you.
Regards
Alison L
Mark Baber
RIP
Hello, Alison---
Please note that the message you're responding to is nearly eight years old and that Penny Cazaly hasn't posted anything here in seven years, so you may very well not get a response from her.
Please note that the message you're responding to is nearly eight years old and that Penny Cazaly hasn't posted anything here in seven years, so you may very well not get a response from her.
