Thomas Smyth & Bridget Donohue


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Richard Nuttall

Guest
Hello all! I'm new to all this but had a question about Lester J. Mitcham's interesting analysis: Passenger Numbers: The Statistics of the Disaster.

With regards to 3rd Class lost...
According to transcript list MT 9/920/201 he states that the list gives 535 passengers lost (passenger numbers 289-823). An attached minute states we should remove numbers 437 - Thomas Emmeth, 638 - Bert O'Donoghue, 812 - Hanne Youssef, and 813 Georges Youssef) as these four survived, leaving 531 passengers lost.
He then goes on to correctly mention about incorrect alterations made to the abovementioned minute: Passengers 822 - Thomas Smyth, and 823 - Bridget Donohue replaced 437 and 638 on the minute stating these passengers survived (when in actual fact they perished). 531 lost should not change - 822 and 823 must remain on the 'lost' list.
As I understand it...
Thomas Emmeth is the incorrect listing for Thomas Smyth who was lost.
Bert O'Donoghue is the incorrect listing to Bridget Donohue who was also lost.
As all four names had numbers on the list, 535 passengers lost to start with was too much. It should have been only 533. Then, according to the Minute, with the two Youssefs survivng, it should drop again to 531. (and then have a further 5 name of survivors removed bringing the total to 526 lost... not the 528 stated in the discussion.

He appears to make the same error in the following paragraph which begins... According to BT 100/260 passengers 291-822 ....etc. A total of 533. I assume that both the Irish passengers are double-listed again (although the passenger numbers are not quoted this time for the correct names). Remove the double-listings to get 531. Add the two who were missed off (Emir and Brahim) and remove the five saved (as above) to get 528. Does this figure include Hanne and George Youssef above? This would again bring us back to 526.

Sorry to baffle everyone with so many figures but I'm (to say the least), a little confused.
 
Jul 20, 2000
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Hi Richard,

My very appreciative thanks to you for drawing attention to what seems to be an error on my part.

Firstly with regard to 100/260; as I noted number 439 which was Emmeth became Farres Chebub Emir. While O'Donoghue is named (number 639) Brahim is not so effectively those 2 cancel each other. Hanne and Georges Youssef are not named; so 533 only needs to be corrected by deleting the 5 survivors who are named by mistake. This means that 528 and as far as I can tell my other conclusions with regard to this document are correct.

As you note with regard to 9/920/201: Thomas Emmeth is the incorrect listing for Thomas Smyth who was lost; and Bert O'Donoghue is the incorrect listing to Bridget Donohue who was also lost. This means that 535 becomes 533; less numbers 811 and 812 and the 5 who survived; which as you note = 526, not 528.

The problem seems to be with what I said about or in this case failed to say about 9/920/201. Having noted your query I have had another look at this document and I cannot find the name of Youssef Brahim. At this point I am guessing that there is one other passenger (who I now have to identify) who has also been excluded. I will look into this and reply as soon as I can. Research by others as well as my earlier category breakdown 145+245+65+73 confirms 528.

Again my very appreciative thanks.
Lester
 
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Richard Nuttall

Guest
Hi Lester,

Many thanks for your reply. Look forward to new info when it appears. Always good to talk to a fellow Kiwi (although, I have to admit to living in London now, but did originate from Auckland!)

Happy New Year
Richard
 
Jul 20, 2000
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Hi Richard,

Again my thanks for drawing attention to the error with my 9/920/201 calculations. I believe that I have now identified and corrected the errors I made. My mistakes are with several of the Syrian passengers and with the many and varied ways of spelling Johnston ........

Having said that no excuses.

A re-check tells me that 512 Carl Johnson was actually deceased passenger Karl Johansson and not as I had believed either Carl Jansson or Carl Jonsson. With the several different forms of her name I failed to note that number 456 - Mrs George survived. So this still gives 7 survivors named on 9/920/201 as having died.

I failed to include Youssef Brahim and now note that I also missed Nourelain Boulos. - Both lost. - Neither are named on 9/920/201.

So 535-2 (Emmeth & O'Donoghue) = 533-7 = 526+2 = 528.

I have also now re-checked 100/260. Initially the same Johnson error; and the same mistakes with Mrs George and Nourelain Boulos. - The former named (number 458); the latter not named. This leaves me with an error of 1.
533-1 (639 O'Donoghue) = 532; minus 5 (George, Monbark, Moussa and the Peter children) survivors named as deceased; plus Brahim and Boulos = 529. I now note that with a number of over-writings on the page that Number 387 is crossed out (it has no name with it); so 529 becomes 528.

Again my appreciative thanks for drawing attention to the fact that my calculations did not add and thus forcing me to re-study and correct my conclusions.

Regards and best wishes from Auckland,
Lester
 
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Richard Nuttall

Guest
Hi Lester
Brilliant work! On the theme of variant spellings, Mr Elias Johannessen appears (as saved) on the WSL list. In an older publication (1982, Auckland Pub. Library) you mention he may have been saved. ET doesn't seem to list him at all. Titanic Triumph and Tragedy doesn't mention him. Riddle of the Titanic does. Any advances on this ambiguous lot? My feeling is he should appear, as saved but is there another spelling?
Regards
Richard
 
Jul 20, 2000
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Hi Richard,

As I have since discovered Elias Johannessen did not make it onboard Titanic. He came down with appendicitis and was hopitalized in England (page 29 of Sebak's: Titanic 31 Norwegian Destinies.

So you have seen my old 1982 Revised Passenger List. Needs a few dozen updates

Regards,
Lester
 
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Richard Nuttall

Guest
Hi again!

Yes... but the list was relatively new when I first aquired a copy! (and I was still in Auckland!)

Thanks heaps for all the info. Will digest it all shortly. Too cold to stay up now over here. Time for bed!!

Kindest regards
Richard
 

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