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Time and Again

Discussion in 'Collision / Sinking Theories' started by Samuel Halpern, Aug 15, 2018.

  1. Aaron_2016

    Aaron_2016 Member

    Plenty of charts show the Labrador current dividing up and moving both west and east. The Titanic would have been pushed by both the labrador current and the gulf stream towards the east. The wreckage on the seafloor is scattered towards the east, which certainly gives us a strong indication as to the direction of the current, coupled with the sightings of the lifeboats, wreckage, and bodies later recovered towards the east.

    Map showing the Labrador current splitting up and moving east.


    The Titanic would be caught between both currents and pushed significantly towards the east.


    Here is an article about the yacht 'Coronet' from 1911. They mention the Labrador current pushing them east.



  2. George Jacub

    George Jacub Member

    When I wrote that article almost 10 years ago I was showing that there was evidence of a clear timeline of events covering the first hour after the collision. A decade later, knowing more, I might change some points to make them clearer, but that's the way it is with all research.
    Regarding Hichens. The consensus of all researchers is that Hichens was speaking of events on the bridge immediately after the ship hit the iceberg. He then jumped ahead to when he was ordered away from the wheel and his experience in Lifeboat No. 6. That's the context in which I used his quote. You could also take his words literally and see what was going on 10 minutes after the collision that would have the captain looking at the commutator. You would see that Smith had already decided to evacuate the ship, starting with the order to clear the lifeboats. He had spoken with the carpenter and Mr. Andrews who told him the ship was sinking. Would he look at the commutator to see how badly the ship was listing? Maybe. Nothing turns on it. I went with the consensus.

    Re: Olliver. You wrote:

    "He couldn't do this 2 trips in just 8 minutes."
    "The average time to go down to this corridor and go back again is about 4 minutes."
    "The time needed to get to the engine room is 3 minutes."

    Where did you get these times? I hope you didn't make them up and then use them as evidence, because--to quote Richard Nixon---that would be wrong.

    In conclusion Olliver couldn't get on the bridge earlier than 11:54.

    Except that by that time the boatswain had piped "all hands on deck' (about 11:50 p.m.) and the men were gathering in the forewell deck where a minute later (11:55 p.m.) they would get their orders to clear the boats. How could the bosun call up the men at least four minutes before Olliver was sent to find him and tell him to call up the men? Now, that's impossible!

    At least you mention, if only vaguely, the existence of Quartermaster John Poingdestre, able seaman George Moore, seaman William Lucas, seaman Edward Buley, Lookout Reginald Lee, and seaman Ernest Archer. As I wrote, Symons' story is perfectly consistent with theirs. You're making a big deal about when Symons reached the boat deck. Are you implying he was the first crewman on deck? That's a streeeeetch.

    re: Hoswell. I was pointing out there was contradictory evidence out there, but it could be explained if you understood the changes in watch and the time changes that would normally have applied to them. I said if you accept he was operating on a different time, his evidence supports the other witnesses. Most importantly, I never rely on his evidence to prove anything. Take him out and the narrative stands. You rely entirely on Rowe's evidence, or rather on his evidence as you change it. The changed evidence supports nobody. He is the only evidence to the timing of the first boat.

    Finally, I apologize for changing the topic on this thread from 'Time and Again' to 'why Boxhall got the ship's final position wrong'. I just wanted to use the opportunity to ask a veteran seaman if my landlubber's understanding of Boxhall's radio interview was correct or if I was missing something. There are many threads out there discussing the reason the Titanic's captain and navigator were so off in their positioning; we don't need another.

    Which is why I will use Thomas C's final quibble--the steam evidence to return to the topic of why 'Time and Again' is so wrong. But that's to come, as this is getting long.
  3. A. Gabriel

    A. Gabriel Member

    Madre de Dios.

    The acrimonious and electrically charged debate on time differences and clock changes, who said what and who saw who where, lifeboat sequences and navigational minutiae and suchlike -- it has grown to rival the debates over the Californian and the mode of breakup in terms of heatedness. It's a tiresome state of affairs, with all the passive-aggressive sniping and backhanded accusations from both sides accusing the other of being wrong/tampering with testimony/etc, and to be quite honest it is making me weary of a topic I once approached with a curious fascination.

    Let the debates end already. At the rate things are going, in the end it would have better if Time And Again had never been written to begin with if all it did was provoke this furious storm of heated controversy. Better a consensus where all are wrong than contentious disputations.
  4. Jim Currie

    Jim Currie Member

    It is all to do with the thoroughness of an examination and understanding of the results thereof, George.
    There would be little or no need for a debate, if the evidence were to be compared to a template of bridge practice on a British merchant vessel in 1912.
    However, like it or not, what appears on these pages and in associated publications is viewed by some as historical fact. I for one, know, without fear of contradiction that there are many such facts which are actually figments of the imagination of the authors.
    Don't you think it would be nice, if, somehow, the facts could be set straight for posterity? If the truth was not blinded by expediency and/or personal pride?
    I am reminded of the British MCA MAIB investigation into the Californian affair.
    There were two authors. The first was a retired professional Ship Surveyor who simply went along with the findings of the Wreck Commissioner's Inquiry. Understandable, since marine accidents were not the man's forte.
    The second was made by the Assistant Chief Inspector of Accidents who essentially rubbished the first report in a very diplomatic way. However, he made an observation which sided with the Captain of the Californian. This was in regard to the navigation of the vessel. To this day, there are "experts" on this site which contradict some of his findings. I do so myself.
  5. It all depends on latitude Aaron.

    >>1. The Labrador Current, which brings both berg and field ice down past Newfoundland, sweeps across the banks in a generally south to southwest direction, flowing more westerly on its surface as it approaches the warm Gulf Stream water in about latitude 43º, with a set of about 12 miles a day. The speed of the Gulf Stream drift at its northern edge is only about 6 miles a day at the fiftieth meridian and its depth is probably less than 300 feet.

    >>2. An ice-field arriving at the edge of the Gulf Stream drift finds itself impelled less and less to southward and more and more to eastward and north-eastward; but a deeply floating iceberg may continue to plow southward into the warm east-flowing current and end its career south of latitude 40º by melting and breaking up. The reason for this is that the cold, south-moving current actually under-runs the warm surface water.
  6. Rob Lawes

    Rob Lawes Member

    Its a sad fact that the tree of Titanic knowledge is growing fewer fruit these days. This is why its always invigorating when a new article comes forward that shines a new light in to previously dark corners.

    Discussions should be embraced and enjoyable.

    It's extremely disappointing to read accusations of deliberate falsification of evidence which doesn't so much call in to question the accuracy of the research but the integrity of those who worked on it. On another day in other areas, such accusations could be described as libellous.

    I've been using these pages for a good number of years now and I'm struggling to recall general agreement on anything. I've seen a number of absurd theories, that make little sense, being defended long beyond the point of rationality. For every well reasoned theory there appears to be another person willing to take an equal and opposite position.

    Its hard work.
  7. We live in an age where sensationalism and misinformation dominate the media, especially on YouTube and FB, and sadly from some officials in public office who use Twitter as a the tool of choice to further some of their distorted views and falsehoods. The best I could say about debated topics such as the ones going on here is for people to actually take the time to read what was published, look through the references cited, consider the thoroughness of what is presented, and then decide for yourself as to what makes the most sense.
  8. George Jacub

    George Jacub Member

    The 173-page 'Time and Again' contains a 50 page chapter (Section Nine) titled.


    The chapter includes a table that "shows the time correlation between certain events, and when using the New York +1 hour and 33 minute column, some aberrant times quickly become obvious. Simultaneously, certain things only become clear and fall into place in both New

    York Time and shipboard time when working with the New York +2 hour and 2 minute time difference. We will consider six examples, labeled A-F..."

    Having dismantled A) Collision to first CQD Message (p.71), I now turn to B)The timing of the steam blowing off. ( p.76)

    This is important because it provides vital evidence for the timing of the launch of the first lifeboats.

    The authors of Time & Again argue that wireless messages show that the steam noise was interfering with the Titanic's wireless operators as late as 10:53 New York Time. Because they use a time conversion of 2 hours 2 minutes that means, to them, the steam noise continued until 12:55 a.m.Titanic time. Then they compound their error by referring to a publication by some of the same researchers declaring that the first port lifeboats were launched at 1 a.m.(No. 8) and 1:10 a.m (No. 6) . Sadly, that publication, Titanic: The Lifeboat Launching Sequence Re-Examined’, is, if anything, chock-filled with even more errors than Time & Again, particularly on the very issue of launch times.

    Rather than smack down every mistake, I will cut to the chase---the true evidence of "the timing of the steam blowing off."

    At 10:36 p.m. New York Time (12:09 a.m. using the 1:33 time conversion) ships heard the Titanic send a "corrected" position. The message included the information: "Can nothing hear for noise of steam." (Yes, the awkward phrasing is the message.)

    Four minutes later (12:13 a.m.) , the Frankfurt called the Titanic and was given the Titanic's position. Junior wireless operator Bride was told by his senior, Phillips, to find the Captain and tell him a potential rescue ship, had called.

    Bride did as bidden, then spoke to the Captain about the racket the steam was causing.

    "The noise of escaping steam directly over our cabin caused a deal of trouble to Mr. Phillips in reading the replies to our distress call. Capt. Smith... managed to get it abated." Bride wrote in a report.

    At 12:19 a.m., six minutes after the first Frankfurt call, the Titanic and Frankfurt engaged in a back-and-forth conversation, the first between Titanic and any ship since the collision. Obviously, sometime in that six minute period, the steam noise had ended. (Ended at least over the Marconi room.).

    In his 1935 memoir, Second Officer Lightoller helps narrow the time when that happened.

    "...and we lowered down the first boat level with the boat deck, and, just at this time, thank heaven, the frightful din of escaping steam suddenly stopped, fore and aft the ship. It was almost startling to hear one’s own voice again after the appalling din of the last half hour or so.

    Fifteen to 20 minutes "at most" after the first boats were cleared, Lightoller asked the Captain's permission to start loading passengers into the lifeboats As shown elsewhere, Lightoller started clearing the lifeboats between 11:55 and midnight. Another officer, Pitman, testified that it took only two minutes to get a lifeboat into the davits and level with the boat deck ready for loading.

    The Captain had to be on the boat deck to hear Bride's plea to stop the steam noise and Lightoller's request to load the boats. But survivors said he was seen below deck about 12:15 a.m. Given the narrow window between Bride's approach and the second Frankfurt call, it was easy to eliminate the times when the steam noise could NOT have been stopped, leaving the most probable time when it was stopped as 12:14 a.m. or shortly after.

    This has greater significance that it might appear at first glance. Remember, that the loading of the first port lifeboat, No. 4, was aborted by the Captain when it reached A deck, from which Lightoller wanted to load it. Lightoller said it took six to 7 minutes to get the boat to A deck. That means it could have reached A deck as early as 12:18 a.m. Using a rule-of-thumb of ten minutes to load the early boats, that's enough time for the second port lifeboat to be loaded and launched or ready to launch when the first rocket was fired (at 12:28 a.m.)

    Passenger Arthur Peuchen, who was saved in No. 6, said the first rocket went up as his boat was being lowered. Fifth Officer Harold Lowe said the first rocket was fired as starboard boat No. 5 was launched! One plus one equals two.

    Follow the evidence and, as I named my blog, Titanic's Secrets Unfold.

    Lightoller said there were eight exhaust pipes venting steam. Passengers Lawrence Beesley and Norman Chambers said they saw steam pipes attached to the funnels. Two pipes per funnel, four funnels and you have eight exhaust pipes. It appears the Captain had the one pipe closest to the wireless room cut, while the others continued to produce a deafening noise.
  9. Jim Currie

    Jim Currie Member

    As I said, George, the 1 hour 33 minute difference is a red herring which bears absolutely no relation to reality.
    As you point out, almost a third (29%) of the Article is devoted to explaining "Why 1 hour 33 minutes does not work". I would ask the simple question: Who said it did work?
  10. George Jacub

    George Jacub Member

    Obviously, I do. Supported by the evidence.

    I've given example after example of the evidence confirming the 1 hour 33 minute time conversion. And I didn't have to change the evidence to fit the theory either,.

    Do you think for one second that the United States Senate commission of inquiry would not have confirmed the times on the Titanic compared to New York? Do you actually think that the commissioners sat there dumbly listening to witnesses without knowing in advance exactly what the witness was going to say?

    I can give you chapter and verse where a witness was contradicted and challenged by a commissioner who had done independent research of a matter. When Lightoller said he couldn't say what time Boxhall came to his door, the commission lawyer had Lightoller's original statement to staff in his hand and asked him whether he recalled making that statement or not. Witnesses were called specifically to put specific matters on the record. They weren't called to "tell us what you remember". Newspaper reporters did that sort of interview. Boxhall, Lightoller and Pitman were specifically asked what the time difference was and they all said 1:33. Are you saying they lied?
  11. Jim Currie

    Jim Currie Member

    No George, I am not saying anyone lied.

    When Boxhall or any other ship's Navigator said the difference between New York Time and ship time was 1 hour 33 minutes, they would not be lying.
    Nor would they be lying if they said the difference between ship time and New York Eastern Standard time was 1 hour 38 minutes ...which it was.

    You quote the time of 10-25 EST as when the first distress signal was heard. That is equivalent to 3-25 am GMT, which, on the bridge of Titanic would have been 3 minutes past Midnight on a partially adjusted clock and 27 minutes past midnight on an unaltered clock. I suggest to you and others, this was the time of the second, revised distress position.
    PV of the Mount Temple recorded:

    "10.25: Titanic sending C.Q.D. Answer him, but he replies: "Can not read you, old man, but here my position, 41.46 N., 50.14 W. Come at once. Have struck berg." Informed captain."

    Now compare what Captain Moore told the Court:
    "Mr. MOORE: It was a general message, sir.

    Titanic sends C. Q. D. Requires assistance. Position 41° 44' north, longitude 50° 24' west Come at once. Iceberg.
    Mr. MOORE.
    This is just a message he picked up, sir. He happened to hear it. He was sending this up at once to me.