Titanic Dinner Plates


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David Seaman

Guest
Good Morning All
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A few weeks back I was having a bit of a discussion in another thread with Inger about the Australian Titanic exhibition that was touring in 97/98. I remember seeing one case where there were quite a few "Gold & Cobalt Blue Dinner Plates" on display. Unfortunately Inger was unable to recall this as she was "too busy flitting between the Lowe display case and a photo album compiled by one of the Oceanic's officers!"
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I also remember reading that these plates were used in the sea trials on Titanic and then taken off before setting sail for her once and only time. The plates were supposedly given to a homeless hostel and were used regularly until they were discovered in the mid-1990's, and have been behind glass ever since.
Could anybody please tell me if this story is just or if I dreamt it.
Any information would be gratefully accepted as this has taunted my mind for the past few years.
Thank you in advance
David Seaman
 
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sean szmalc

Guest
Hi David,

I read your posting with great interest, I know of the rare plates that you mention, a very good friend has a vast array of pre - maiden voyage Titanic items which include the plates you refer to that were taken off of the Titanic.

Unfortunately there are those who state that this is pure nonsense and that it is false that any items were taken from the Titanic prior to her maiden departure, how do they know, I along with a few others have had the privilege to see the items and also to view the individual provenace. With the provenace which is in great detail you can see that there was in fact items taken off of the ship including the plates.

I hope the information has helped you David, if I can assist you any further please feel free to contact me where I will be more than happy to assist you in any way I can.
 

Steve Santini

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Nov 29, 2000
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Re: Titanic plates.
To date, research I and others have done shows that there were only two patterns of china which were unique and exclusive to Titanic. One was a pattern made by Royal Crown Derby and another was a pattern made by Spode Copeland with the registry number R4332. As far as the other china patterns carried by Titanic, they were all common service pieces which were the same patterns used by every other White Star Line ship of the era. Spode records show that on March 14th, 1911, two very special china patterns were ordered by Stoniers, White Star Lines' china brokerage agents. One of these patterns was registry number R4331 and the other was R4332. Both of these patterns were made in VERY limited numbers, (perhaps as little as 190 pieces per pattern), and both sported unique and delicate designs in cobalt blue with gold edge work. Given the registry numbers of the patterns, it is only logical to conclude that R4331 was specially designed for Olympic, and R4332 was specially designed for Titanic. Pieces of R4331 have shown up on the public market designated as having come from Olympic and pieces of R4332 have been found on the Titanic wreck site (no pieces of R4331 have been found on the wreck site so this would logically support the contention that one special cobalt and gold pattern was made for Olympic and a seperate one was made for Titanic). One of the problems that exists with any of the china purported to have been taken from Titanic following her sea trials is that none of it is in the two special patterns made for Titanic by either Crown Derby or Spode. Rather, many the NUMEROUS plates said to have been taken of the Titanic by a one Mr. Bull are of the generic White Star patterns such as Spode "Greek key", Stonier "Celtic", and the very common "Blue Finger' pattern, etc. So, there is no way to know for sure if any of the plates purported to have been removed from Titanic were actually ever on, or even made for the ship. Add to this the sheer illogical stance of someone taking a QUANTITY of china off of the ship when if fact the ship was being OUTFITTED with just such items in preparation for her maiden voyage, and it readilly becomes obvious why many people around the globe are having an increasingly hard time buying the story that one man who worked for White Star walked off the ship with a quantity of table ware. Heap on top of this the fact that we have never heard of such a thing happening following the sea trials of any other White Star ship, (i.e. someone walking off with an arm load of china. Why just the Titanic? Did someone know it was going to sink?), and the "provenance" of these alleged "Titanic plates" falls apart altogether. While it is true some items (in very limited quantity) were indeed taken from the ship before she sailed and even at her ports of call, it is the opinion of many serious Titanic researchers and collectors that these numerous Titanic dinner plates "taken off following the sea trials" do not abide with sufficient provenance which would in any way link them to, or put them on, Titanic. Kind regards, Steve Santini.
 
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In the spur of the moment (I ran home for a quick lunch) I can tell you that during my correspondence with Jennifer Carter (1st woman to dive to the wreck of the TITANIC in '87, and close friend of Ralph White) I was exposed to a photographs which showed close-up images of some recovered artifacts as they were being cataloged aboard the French R.V. NADIR...amongst the hoard was a *pristine* DEMITASSE of the aforementioned cobolt blue/gold pattern.

I feel this delicate artifact substantiates ample enough credence that this pattern was indeed aboard TITANIC.

Strike one up for the French and their *Little Yellow Submarine" huh?

Adios!

Michael A. Cundiff
USA
 

Steve Santini

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Titanic Plates: For David Seaman
BTW. I forgot to mention that the Spode Copeland "Greek Key" pattern does indeed have a cobalt blue edge band accented by a gold Greek "Key" runner design. The Spode "Greek Key" pattern was used in first class on many White Star vessels of Titanic's era. I have in the past seen plates in this pattern which were claimed to have been among those taken off the ship following her sea trials. It is most likely that this was the "cobalt and gold" pattern shown in the Australian exhibition you mentioned. This pattern was not exclusive to Titanic and any table service in this pattern claimed to have come off of Titanic could just as easilly have come off any of the other ships of the line. Add to this fact the points I have mentioned in my earlier post, and it becomes very difficult to put any particular pieces of this service anywhere near the Titanic. Regards, Steve Santini
 

Steve Santini

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Nov 29, 2000
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Dear Michael,
Yes, I am aware of the demitasse you mentioned. It may interest you to know that we here at Titanic Concepts Inc. own a demitasse saucer in the Titanic R4332 pattern that was removed from the vessel before it sailed. You can see our saucer here on the ET online exhibit. While the pattern R4332 was aboard Titanic, and, it can be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, we must also remember that many other patterns were also recovered from Titanic. However, what sets R4332 aside from these other patterns is that we have never uncovered substantiated evidence which proves that R4332 was a mass produced pattern intended for use on all the ships of the line. The same goes for R4331 which I believe was commissioned especially for the Olympic. And yet proof , and plenty of it, exists showing that many of the other china patterns used on Titanic were in service on all the vessels of the line. I am afraid I personally would not believe a piece of china had come off of, or was made for, Titanic unless it was either A)the special commissioned Crown Derby pattern of which a salad plate survives in the Southampton Heritage Collection, or, B) was the Spode R4332 pattern.Kind regards, Steve Santini
 
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sean szmalc

Guest
The provenace of the Titanic plates can be further supported with the entry into the White Star Line Diary, Southampton, April 1912, which Douglas Bull owns with several other diaries obtained by his father the late George Fredrick Bull who was employed by the White Star Line in Southampton Docks, George Fredrick Bull under the authority of Thomas Andrews removed a selection of China items. George Fredrick Bull purchased a selection of plates from the White Star Line which a few exist today. George Fredrick Bull was the last known person to leave the Titanic on Wednesday April 10th, 1912, with the bill of lading and certificate of sailing.

There is also a provenace of a Turquoise and Brown Dinner set delivered to a guest house in Southampton where crewmen stayed prior to joining Titanic, the landlady of the guest house had commented on how beautiful the china pieces were and the crew had arranged a set to be delivered to her guest house.

During the early research and recovery expeditions to the R.M.S. Titanic, R.M.S. TITANIC President George Tulloch and Commander Paul Henri Nargeolet both confirmed that the china recovered from the debris field matched the Bull collection plates consisting of Spode Copeland and Stonier & Co. Liverpool.

My friend is also a consultant to Southebys, Christies and Philips auctioneers worldwide and also has in his collection a vast array of items including very rare vase from the a la carte restuarant, Dinner plate and silverplate which carries the table numbers and Titanic inscription and batch numbers.
 

Steve Santini

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Nov 29, 2000
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Titanic plates, ATTN: Sean.
There are NO WSL plates, china items, or silverplate items which carry ANY designation by "batch number" for ANY particular ship of the line. You say your friend has items which carry "table numbers", and "Titanic inscription and batch numbers" when this is simply impossible. Any beginning collector of WSL china and silverplate knows that there is NO WAY to tie the standard stock patterns used by the line to any particular ship. The numbers you refer to on the back of china pieces are merely pattern registration numbers which are like patents to register and protect the patterns themselves. And, while the Elkington silver service produced for WSL does indeed have date cyphers stamped into each piece, it DOES NOT have ANY type of marking which denotes which ship it was made for or is to be used on. As for the observations of Geroge Tulloch re: the china raised from the wreck matched the Bull items, this too means nothing as far as proving the origin of the Bull items. Indeed, while some of the patterns found at the wreck site may match the Bull items, that is only because the Bull china items are of patterns USED ON ALL THE SHIPS OF THE LINE. And please, do not try and tell me the "lot numbers" on the raised items matched the "lot numbers" on the Bull items. For starters, they are not "Lot numbers", they are pattern registration numbers. Secondly, ALL of the china in the same pattern would have IDENTICAL numbers regardless of which ship the china was assigned to. This goes for Stonier items as well as Spode Copeland. I don't know how many times I have seen someone put an ordinary piece of WSL china on Ebay and claim it is from Titanic merely because the "Lot numbers" on the back match those of pieces raised from the wreck. It appears Sean that your friend, whom you claim is a consultant to major auction houses, needs to go back and redo his homework. ESPECIALLY if he is trying to have you and everyone else believe that he owns items with Titanic's "table numbers and batch numbers". As I said before; I would not trust a piece of china said to have come off or been made for Titanic unless it was the Spode R4332 or the Royal Crown Derby pattern I mentioned in an earlier posting. ONLY these two patterns were made specifically for the ship. In closing, Sean, perhaps you would tell me this... Why are none of the Bull china items taken off of the ship either the Spode R4332 pattern or the Crown Derby pattern? I really would like to know. P.S. In regards to the "very rare" bud vase which recently sold at auction, please tell me why we have never seen any identical bud vases for other ships of the line? And please tell me why this vase did not have the WSL burgee as did all the other items of silver table service. And, please also tell me why someone saw fit to give the bud vase that little extra bit of provenance by LATER having "TITANIC" and "A la Carte Restaurant" engraved into it? And finally, why on earth would a purchasing agent for WSL have any need to buy or remove ANYTHING from the ship? After all,as a purchasing agent or clerk, he would have seen many itmes destined for Titanic before they were even loaded aboard! By the way, these are not only my opinions; many serious researchers and collectors I know also have many of the same questions. Regards, Steve Santini
 
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sean szmalc

Guest
Its actually Margot not Sean,

I appreciate your points and views.
The White Star Line Diary that still exists today owned by the son of George Fredrick Bull has entered for April, 1912, that these plates were taken off of the ship including presentation plates.

If these plates were not used onboard Titanic why is there an entry in the White Star Line Diary which states there were?

Also why is there full documentation available to further support this?

Why after so many years of explaining to his son where his collection of plates came from would George Fredrick Bull be telling lies especially to his son?

My friend who has one of the largest collections of Tianic and White Star Line in the United Kingdom has been staging world wide exhibitions and also has many notable and Royal Patrons, why would he risk everything by telling lies and misleading people.
 

Steve Santini

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Margot,
I am not implying someone is deliberately lying. Rather, I am stating that someone is obviously mistaken in thier research and conclusions concerning these plates. As I said earlier, I am not the only one who holds this opinion. I should also clarify that my opinions on this matter are not merely "knee jerk" reactions but have in fact come about through many years of research into the china used on board Titanic. In researching the R4332 saucer we have it was very important that I became familiar with A) all of the china patterns recovered from the debris field, B) the china patterns carried by other WSL ships of the period, and, C) any and all existing examples of china claimed to have been taken from Titanic before she sailed into history. In my research I contacted Spode and Royal Crown Derby who were both makers of china destined for Titanic and I have ammassed a rather large file with every lead or scrap of info I could acquire on Titanic's china patterns. I have been very thourough in my research. However, as no one is capable of knowing everything anbout every subject, I would very much appreciate if you could post to this site in detail any and all of the provenance concerning the Bull items so I, and any other interested parties could learn from the information. Of particular interest would be scans of the entries in the diary you mentioned as well as any other provenance that exists for these items. I will admit that I am always willing to learn new things about Titanic. Here is your chance to educate! Please post back to this thread and let us all know when the provenance for the Bull items will be posted here on ET. Thank you in advance, Steve Santini.
 
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David Seaman

Guest
Hi All...
I totally forgot that I posted this thread, who would have thought it would turn into a controversial topic? Thank you all for your input, I look forward to hearing more about these items.
I have always felt that the collection I had seen was a little... well... wrong. If it had actually been on Titanic (although the description said it had), it would have been more prominant in the exhibition rather than being positioned between the Ladies and Gents.
I will try to find the photo of the display case to find out what types of crockery they put on display.
Anyway... off to study for exams again
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Take Care

David Seaman
 

Steve Santini

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Dear David,
Yes, I would very much like to see a picture of these "Titanic plates". I'll give you good odds they are the generic "Greek Key" pattern used on all the ships of the line. Thank you and I hope you find and can post the picture. And Sean and Margot, there is one more thing I forgot to mention. In one of your earlier posts on this topic, you say that George Frederick Bull removed the plates from Titanic under the authority of Thomas Andrews. Since when would a representative on board from Harland and Wolff, and not even an employee of White Star Line let alone a ranking official in that firm, have the authority to tell ANYONE what to do with WHITE STAR LINE PROPERTY? It just keeps getting better and better! I can't wait to see the entire "provenance". Regards, Steve Santini.
 
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sean szmalc

Guest
Its quite enjoyable these postings and keeping up with traditional controversay surrounding the legendary Titanic which I agree is getting better and better, I have spoken to my friend who would love to speak with you direct on this subject Steve and finally put an end to disputing not only the plates but the provenace of these items.

One thing I wonder though is, none of us were there, so how come we are all experts and certain that they were NOT TAKEN OFF OF THE SHIP?, Douglas Bull, son of the late George Fredrick Bull was there, the company diary of April 1912, also records the events.

So are we to assume a) the White Star Line Diary is full of lies, b) George Fredrick Bull is also misleading and telling lies to both the company and his own family c) a very well known and respected consultant to Sothebys,Philips and Christies Auctioneers is also misleading and telling lies to all of us and his patrons which include Royalty, "I think not."

when viewing the entirity of the provenace, I can assure you that there is no doubt in any way, its such a great pity that there are those who doubt this entire story when not even viewing the provenace including the company diary.
 

Steve Santini

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Nov 29, 2000
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Dear Sean,
Answer me this: Why would ANYONE need to take ANY china items in quantity off of Titanic right before her maiden voyage? Also, I am aware that three patterns of china are alleged to have been taken off of Titanic by Bull following her sea trials. As people on obard for the sea trials were only served breakfast and lunch, will you kindly explain to me why THREE different patterns of china would have been used at only TWO meals? And finally; why are almost all of the items Bull allegedly took off the ship in the form of dinner plates? If he was taking them off the ship because they were dirty having been used for breakfast and lunch, and needed to be replaced, (assuming there were no dish washing staff on Titanic, which there were), why do we not see him also taking off the cups and saucers, dessert plates, butter patts, cutlery, serving platters, coffee pots, silver service, etc. As for this diary you mention, I would imagine a very logical entry in it from Bull, who was a purchasing agent for White Star, should read something like this; "My word! They have me ordering supplies for the ship for her maiden voyage and now they have me trotting off the ship with crateloads of stuff that belongs on board which is what I ordered it for in the first place. They must be mad! They have me taking off plates to be used by the passengers and what's next; the toilet paper?"... Can you see Sean and Margot how ridiculous all of this seems? It makes little or no sense. Finally, can you please tell me exactly what sort of "consulting" your friend has done for all of these leading auction houses? Remember, being a consignor to an auction house does in no way qualify one as being a "respected consultant". Once again, when are you going to post the provenance in this public forum? I asked before and I am asking again. For that matter, when are you going to kindly respond to the many questions I have asked? It seems that you are avoiding my questions and only answering by posting questions of your own. This is evasive behaviour at best. Since you are very secure in the knowledge that there will be no doubt once I finally see ALL of the provenance including the diary, feel free to post all of this information to this thread so others as well as myself can read it and perhaps be "converted". Regards, Steve Santini.
 
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sean szmalc

Guest
As previously mentioned Steve, its Margot not Sean,

Look, I think it will be best if I have my friend post on the board himself and CONTACT YOU DIRECT as YOU are questioning his integrity oh by the way wasn't this what you went through with people not believing that your items were off of the Titanic!!

I have a question, HAVE YOU THE PROVIDANCE TO BACK YOUR ITEMS!!!

Please come back to me with a provenace on your items RESEARCH is ONE thing, PROVENACE IS ANOTHER. As YOU question the son of the late George Fredrick Bull, Perhaps YOU WOULD LIKE TO SPEAK TO HIM IN PERSON, and TELL him HIS FATHER IS A LIAR!!!
 

Kyrila Scully

Member
Apr 15, 2001
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Margot and/or Sean:

I read your profile. If you are so into Titanic, are you even aware who Steve Santini is, or why he speaks so passionately about the plates? I suggest you calm down and find out who it is you're dealing with here. He would never blow his own horn, so I will. He is not just some average Joe on the Internet. Steve is not only a well-known and respected author of Titanic books, but he is also a well-known collector, whose personal collection has been exhibited all over and is well recognized. You would probably recognize some of his collection yourself, as several famous pieces have been photographed and filmed for books and videos. I myself have seen these pieces and have been very moved by them. I have photographs of three of my favorites from his collection. I believe he himself has been interviewed on some documentaries. He knows whereof he speaks. You might say he is an expert when it comes to Titanic objects. Steve has nothing to prove to you. We all know it here. However, you did offer to provide proof, and if you have such documentation at your disposal, for research's sake, please do share it with all of us. We would all be very interested, and not to attack you, but to examine it for the sake of study. If you're insecure with debate over authenticity, I suggest you stick to run-of-the-mill Titanic fan sites. This one is for the strong-hearted, serious students of Titanica.

Regards,
Kyrila Scully
 

Steve Santini

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Nov 29, 2000
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Margot, Sean or whoever,
My provenance for any and all of our items is intact. Just take a quick peek at the items we have on display in the ET online exhibit. All are real and all are proven. And those are just a small sample of what we own related to Titanic. The other artifacts we hold are currently on display at a world class Titanic attraction in the USA. They too are overtly authenticated. As many serious Titanic collectors and researchers on both sides of the Atlantic will attest, I am very exacting when it comes to my research of any item alleged to be linked to Titanic. Perhaps that is the reason both you and Sean over a month ago asked me if I would accept the title of Honorary Historian to the Falkirk Titanic Society which you operate. I think it is only fair for readers of this thread to know that you enlisted my assistance as historian because of the very detailed research I offered you on a White Star Line deck chair you asked for my assistance with. I still have the e mails. Now it would seem that my very same investigative nature which you both previously praised is greatly annoying you. "Sorry". Now that we have dispensed with your attempt to detract attention away from the Bull "Titanic china" issue by instead calling my integrity into question, allow me to once again ask why you have not answered any of my questions and have instead responded with questions of your own and now with a feeble attempt to cloud the issue under discussion? You must have exactly the same documentation as the Bull family since you have in the past made it known that the Falkirk Titanic Society or Sean Szmalc, it's President, owns some of this very china. So I ask, why is it necessary to have Mr. Bull respond to me? If you have the documentation I am curious about, why not post to this thread copies of what you have? I have not called anyone a liar, (like you imply), and I have simply brought up points of contention that I (and others) have with these china pieces. You have been presented with every opportunity to answer my questions and further my education in this Titanic matter. Rather than take this opportunity and build on it, you have instead chosen to take the quest for information as a personal attack, ignore the issues I have raised, and now call my character and reputation into question. Well done! I think it is best if the Falkirk Titanic Society finds itself another "Honorary Historian". It would probably also be good if the person chosen for the position agrees with everything he or she is ever told without question. Regards, Steve Santini. P.S. I never did recieve my "Honorary Membership" documents which you claim to have sent out to me over a month ago.
 
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sean szmalc

Guest
It seems that you still dont comprehend or simply understand the actual content of the post, we are asking why YOU are doing everything entirely possible to SAY that the BULL plates were NEVER ON THE TITANIC when there is EVIDENCE RECORDED AND WRITTEN in the White Star Line Diary for April 1912, it seems that YOU as a researcher and HISTORIAN doesn't wish to believe what was written in 1912, WHY???? as a RESEARCHER and Historian would you question this, Did you know of the Diary? It seems you did not as you never mentioned it before it was brought up in this post. It seems that YOU don't wish to believe this in any fact or form, even if you viewed the DIARY, I suspect You would still continue to disbelieve.

I think there is something more to this than meets the eye with you Steve, I really don't know what or why. I find it very funny that YOU say that your Character and reputation is put into question, YOU are the one putting my friends and Mr. Bull's into question and actually damaging their reputation. You also state "So I ask, why is it necessary to have Mr. Bull respond to me?" you continualy dispute what his father has said to him. Your comments and views will be passed onto them where I am sure they will be in contact with you in the very near future.

Regarding your implications regarding the society and Sean, well thats another matter entirley, which I feel has no relevance to this matter and is also very unprofessional to mention in the post.

Further more Steve, You never sent any information or ANY items THAT YOU had continually PROMISED us and CLAIMED to have sent us.

I am very surprised at you Steve, we are very sorry you feel the way you do, but its your descision in the end and we respect and honour your descision.
 

Steve Santini

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Margot and Sean,
Actually, you are wrong again. Copies of 3 of my published books were sent out to you and in fact you should have them by now. You will remember I e mailed you saying they had been sent. I still have that e mail too. You did not respond to it. And yes, I was and am aware of the diary of which you speak. Still, I have YET TO SEE THIS DIARY and any of it's contents despite having asked repeatedly. Like I said before, I only asked questions and raised concerns that both I, and other collectors/researche rs have concerning these alleged "Titanic plates". And, in response to my questions, I have recieved no specific answers; only scorn and a feeble attack on my character and the artifacts I currently curate. In closing, it should be clear that I made no "implications" concerning the Falkirk Titanic Society (like you say I did). Kindly go back and re read my posts. You say you are "suprised" at me. I could very well now say the same thing about the both of you. Regards, Steve Santini. P.S. As this thread seems to be drawing comments from other members of ET, I would like to appeal to interested parties to please post to this thread and let your opinions on this issue be known. I am not perfect as a Titanic researcher, nor am I saying I am 100% correct in my opinions on this matter. However, like I have said a number of times, I am not the only one who holds a skeptical view of these articles.
 
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sean szmalc

Guest
Hi Kyria,

I appreciate your post and would like to point out that I do know who Steve is and I do respect and appreciate his views, I think he is doing a marvellous job with his work and commend him, I sincerely do.

You have put your view across and your respect for Steve which again I sincerely agree. I however would like to point out that the gentleman he is questioning is also very highly respected in the Titanic world, providing historical provenaces with major Titanic exhibitions and is also one of the foremost Titanic and White Star Line consultants to Southebys, Philips and Christies auctioneers Worldwide, he has also appeared on many and various media television all over the world, I am personally defending this gentleman's integrity who I have the highest admiration and respect for, he is in no way misleading people and shouldn't be attacked or treated as such when really there is no reason to do so, I am sure you would agree with me, the gentleman also owns a very rare and extensive collection of pre-maiden voyage Titanic items which briefly include a Royal Crown Derby Plate, Vase, as well as various other items including POCKET WATCH THAT BELONGED TO AMY CATTEN MASSEUSE ON THE RMS TITANIC, POCKET WATCH THAT BELONGED TO MISS JULIA SMYTH, WHO BOARDED THE RMS TITANIC AT QUEENSTOWN, ALSO AN ORIGINAL PHOTOGRAPH SHOWING HER FATHER WEARING THE WATCH ONBOARD THE TITANIC, HER FATHER WAS EMPLOYED ON THE TITANIC BY THE WHITE STAR LINE, A VERY RARE SET OF WHITE STAR LINE NUTCRACKERS, WHICH WERE USED ONBOARD THE TITANIC DURING HER SEA AND ACCEPTANCE TRIALS AND TAKEN OFF OF THE TITANIC UNDER THE AUTHORITY OF THOMAS ANDREWS PRIOR TO HER MAIDEN DEPARTURE, FURTHER PROVENACE CAN BE SUPPLIED FROM THE WHITE STAR LINE DIARY OF APRIL 1912 AND GEORGE FREDRICK BULL SOUTHAMPTON APRIL 1912. TITANIC SURVIVOR FRANK GOLDSMITH'S PERSONAL COLLECTION CONSISTING OF A COIN THAT HIS FATHER GAVE TO HIM PRIOR TO BOARDING THE TITANIC, A POCKET WATCH AND A GOLD CHAIN.

I am sure you would also agree that this gentleman has nothing to prove, I also would like to further comment on your quote "If you're insecure with debate over authenticity, I suggest you stick to run-of-the-mill Titanic fan sites. This one is for the strong-hearted, serious students of Titanica."

I am in no way insecure of the debate of the authenticity of any of the gentleman's items, I have personally viewed them and seen the provenace, I don't think there are any run of the mill Titanic sites as you put it, each and every site is unique in many different ways, each and every individual puts their own and unique effort into their sites and most importantly TO REMEMBER THE PEOPLE of the TITANIC. I don't think their is ONLY ONE STRONG HEARTED SITE as YOU put it for Titanic.
 

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