Titanic Dinner Plates


Kyrila Scully

Member
Apr 15, 2001
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If you go to any department store that sells fine china, you'll see that the practice of registration numbers still appear...for the purpose of replacing breakage from open stock. It's an inventory practice that's been used forever.

Kyrila
 

Steve Santini

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Nov 22, 2000
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Final word...
I am now posting what I hope will be the final word on the subject of the alleged Titanic plates (at least from me). I am posting this just to clarify some important issues. For the very last time, I would like to point out that my skepticism regarding these items was and is in no way intended to be a personal attack on the character, reputation, ethics, or motivation of the owner and distributor of these plates, one Mr. John Cross. As I previously stated, Mr. Cross did telephone me and we had what I would consider to be a very nice chat. Indeed, I enjoyed our discussion as it touched on a number of Titanic related topics. However, despite how much I enjoyed the company of Mr. Cross and his pleasant manner, I still feel that there is a very serious lack of evidence that these plates were ever on, let alone taken off, the Titanic. I also raised with Mr. Cross concerns I had about at least one other object alleged to have been taken off of Titanic by George Frederick Bull. Unfortunately, to date, no one has responded in detail and with sufficient historical accuracy to dismiss the numerous "problems" I have raised concerning these objects and thier claimed authenticity . During my conversation with Mr. Cross, it appeared that he was taking very seriously what I had to say, and indeed, he even agreed with me that the points I raised had a good deal of merrit and certainly required further investigation. So, until I see some more conclusive and concrete evidence regarding these plates, I must hold fast to my original position on this matter. I hope I have made myself very clear on this issue. Regards, Steve Santini.
 
Sep 12, 2000
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Coming in here late Steve. Hope you are still about. This is very interesting.

I want to ask something,but want to be sure I understand, so I will make up a story. This is not real.

From a professional assessors or insurance company perspective what you are saying is that if I have a complete set of china in my possession which I know was given to me by my grandmother and is the period china used on all Whitestar ships of 1912 period and the family history relays a story that Thomas Andrews had given my grandfather this set of china to remove from the Titanic and to keep because my grandfather had purchased it:

the assessor or insurance person would need some sort of documentation that shows that the common china was actually aboard Titanic and the fact that it was given to my grandfather in order to obtain insurance for something that would become more valuable.

It is not a case of questioning the authenticity of the china itself or the purchasing of it, it is the placing of it on the Titanic that needs documentation? Is this what this is about?

Sorry I do not have things like this and wondered about this process.

So the china used on only the Titanic is easily registered and the identification is easy due to the uniqueness of the registered patterns. But the china used on all ships is more difficult to identify as having been on the Titanic, right? This is because the register number is the same for all pieces no matter which ship it sailed on.

Just curious, but is it possible that White Star allowed people to order special items as a part of the bigger order to obtain lower bulk pricing and that when the item was delivered that all items went aboard Titanic by mistake and that the man was merely collecting what was actually his property with Andrews oversight of the removal? And if this were what happened, would there be a "log entry" of sorts that records this on outfitting lists or something.

Hey, I am not an expert or even a newbie on this...I am worse than a newbie...I truly do not know anything about auctions and these sorts of items. So I am just asking.

Hope you are doing well Steve. Good to see you here.

Maureen.
 

Steve Santini

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Nov 22, 2000
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Dear Maureen,
Nice to hear from you! Long time no talk! Re: your question as to wether or not WSL allowed people to order special items as part of the bigger lot to optain lower "bulk" pricing on orders, I do not think such a thing happened with these china plates. Why? Because all of the china patterns alleged to have been taken off Titanic by Bull are of generic pattern used on all of the ships of the line. In fact, Stoniers, WSL's china agents, had a supply depot near the Southampton docks where they kept QUANTITIES of these very same patterns to stock other ships which may have suffered breakage in the course of regular service. To speculate that WSL ordered a huge lot of china only too discover that too much of it went aboard Titanic does not work for me. Remember also that the year before, an identical stocking (as far as quantity) was done for the Olympic. Why do we not hear of numerous tiems having been off loaded from her? Why just items from a ship that on April 10th of 1912, no one had any idea was going to sink? And, as far as Andrews overseeing the removal, I am afraid I just don't buy thie either. Rememeber, Andrews could have cared less about the china. Stocking the ship with provisions was simply not either his job or his area of expertise. Andrews was on board as a representative of Harland and Wollf to make sure the ship ran properly and also to note potential modifications which could be made to improve Titanic and likely future yard designs. Nice to hear from you and do please keep in touch. Regards, Steve Santini
 
Sep 12, 2000
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As always, thanks. I am utterly useless when it comes to all of this stuff and I was having a hard time following this thread. But I think now I understand better.

Does this mean you won't authenticate my Martha Stewart Titanic Collection I bought on eBay. They threw in a genuine resin deck chair? (Just teasing you).

And thanks Steve. Take care.
Maureen.
 

Steve Santini

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Nov 22, 2000
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Hi Maureen,
You are most welcome! I am only too glad to help and I am only trying to educate. You should cut up sections of the "Martha Stewart deck chair" and sell them on Ebay. I bet you would clean up!!!
Take care and thanks for the nice words, Steve Santini
 
Sep 12, 2000
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Glad you have a sense of humor Steve. I am glad you are back on here.

And I like the idea for the deck chair...I'll check with Martha to see if she has a problem with that.

But I guess that the important thing is that there is a remote possibility that the china could have been pieces that were once on Titanic, but the owners must demonstrate some sort of chain of ownership that states that since so many pieces were made for so many ships that it would be difficult to say without question just from looking at these that they are pieces from the Titanic. But a documented chain of ownership would demonstrate on paper the ownership..is that right?

Maureen.
 
Sep 12, 2000
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Sorry, forgot to ask this. What sort of "paper" or document or whatever is it that would have been drawn up as a transaction that would have officially transferred the china ownership from White Star to the gentleman who removed it?

Were there a set of forms or was it simply a written note or a transaction payment received type of thing?

I guess I am asking, what is it that you need as demonstration of this?

They said something about a White Star document, what is that and what does it record?

Again, I know nothing about this stuff.

Maureen.
 

Steve Santini

Member
Nov 22, 2000
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Maureen,
Please read my previous posts. You will find one where I mention the "provenance" document and the problems and conflicts it contains. Read the posts and I will also e mail you this document so you can see for yourself. I am not meaning to be rude by not answering your questions, but I have been over and over this thing in incredible detail on this thread and I am somewhat reluctant to revisit the numerous problems and conflicts concerning the alleged authenticity of these plates. Be sure to read the document I send you VERY CAREFULLY and look for conflicts. Regards, Steve Santini.
 
Sep 12, 2000
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Okay.

I guess what I was asking was what is meant by "provenance" document. But I will read the document you send to me and get back with you later.

Thanks.
Maureen.
 
Sep 12, 2000
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Okay, I have read what you have sent to me.

I have some questions.

Taking away the Thomas Andrews questions, I know that when growing up I saw some of my parents relatives pass on and their clothing was passed down to a relative or given away to charity or placed in a box and stored. I noted that many people did not want to use or know that this was used by a person who died. Were there possibly some sort of "omens" or superstitions about using the Titanic china? Would there be anyway to document that? People in the 1930's did not have any value applied to old Titanic things and in 1912, it would not be great to know that one was eating off of old Titanic dishes while sailing. And as in anything, word does get out. The barrel would have just sat there no one daring to use the pieces.

Also, Morgan was to be on Titanic, could it be that Titanic was being outfitted with all new things to impress the American investor?

As for the Thomas Andrews thingy, I do not have any thought as to why a thing would happen that way.

And so that Mr Cross is clear, it seems that the thread was started by an innocent bystander here who asked if what he saw at an exhibit was really true. Those sorts of questions happen all the time here. Just a harmless question. The fact is that "sean" addressed the answer by bringing up the fact that their authenticity was being questioned and that she sort of questioned people who would do that.

I do not think that Steve has shown anything but respect for the proof of ownership chain of events process here.

Just as in evidence there is a chain of evidence, in ownership there is a chain of ownership. If I were to purchase a home with a title search that I felt the ownership transfer was not thoroughly documented in an earlier point, I would ask for further documentation. In real estate word of mouth simply does not cut it any more, one must have paperwork to prove ownership.

Steve, I believe, is honestly trying to help.

I think that he is saying, okay you say this happened, now show me that it did through a paper trail. That is not the same thing as questioning integrity.

Maureen.
 

Steve Santini

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Nov 22, 2000
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Dear Maureen,
I was not really, as you put it, just "trying to help". In fact, I was, and have been, investigating and questioning the claims surrounding these items which are alleged to have been on, and taken off, the Titanic. To proceed to lay out theories as you have done detailing possiblities why these china pieces were not put into circulation after they were taken off the ship is assuming that they were on the ship in the first place which, evidence shows, they were not. Eeven if one were to make a leap of faith and asuume these plates were on Titanic, the question here is not the chain of ownership but in fact the chain of custody (i.e. every set of hands these pieces have ever passed through.)Regards, Steve Santini
 

Kris Muhvic

Member
Jul 3, 2001
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Hello-
A little question here- is there, somewhere, a, well, "roster" or catalogue type thing that lists the styles, patterns, etc. of china used on Titanic (or WSL ships of the 1912 era)? In my book collection I see many: 1st class saloon, A la Carte, 2nd and 3rd class- yet there seems to be differences within these catagories. Or maybe just misinformations- I don't know.
I am no Titanic artifact collector, because A., I could not afford a butter pat, and B., if I could...it would be fake! I do collect the old Adams, Meakin etc. vartiety ironstone, but that has nothing to do with Titanic; I just like the simple, pure shapes. My interest here is obviously quite peripheral.

Take care-
Kris
 

Mike Orton

Member
Mar 2, 2007
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"White Star" Fiddle pattern Nickel "Silver" fork.
Pseudo hall mark Crown, Gate D & A
(Daniel and Artur Birmingham)
"Navada Silver D & A " on shaft.
Stamp White Star above pseudo hall mark.
Got for 20p in Harlech Charity Shop.
Obviously from 3rd class on WSL ship, but which one? any ideas? Worth how much?
 

Ernie Luck

Member
Nov 24, 2004
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A friend who lives up North and who is aware of my interest in Titanic, mentioned that an Antique Centre in Bakewell, Derbyshire is offering plates for sale from the 'Bull' collection. The price is £1200 which I understand is negotiable. Given the doubts expressed by Steve Santini and the asking price, I have no personal interest.

There is apparently also an early water-colour painting of the Olympic which presumably came from the same source.

If anyone is interested, I will post the address and telephone number here.
 

Ray Perks

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Aug 21, 2004
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Hi Ernie,
I don't think I'd be interested either!
Having said that, and knowing the saga behind these said plates, if you can let me have details of where they are I may be able to shed some more light on the issue. I live about 1 1/2 hours from Bakewell and would probably call them with a view to making a visit to see for myself.

Cheers
 

Ernie Luck

Member
Nov 24, 2004
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Hi Ray

It's the Rutland Arms Antique Centre in Bakewell. Telephone Number 01629 810468. They have side plates and soup plates. Could be the painting is of more interest.

Regards Ernie
 

Ray Perks

Member
Aug 21, 2004
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Hi again Ernie,
thanks for that.
I'll give them a call over the weekend but more likely on Monday with a view to get up to see these items.
Thanks so much for the information. I'll keep you informed.
Cheers
 

Ray Perks

Member
Aug 21, 2004
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Hi Jason,

Naturally I will tell what I find out. I had dealings with a participant of this saga a few years ago and it would be good to find out the truth. I shall phone the place on Monday and have set aside Tuesday to go and see.

Cheers
 

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