Titanic Honor and Glory

Rancor

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Jun 23, 2017
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Personally, I am more excited about the prospect of a working model davit being available as:
  • Welin Davits are a very unique design that you rarely see either as a replica or in real life.
  • From this picture below, it looks like you could be actually able to crank them in or out (and if you're good at model making, you could modify it to have planking or even a lifeboat hanging from it).
View attachment 45048View attachment 45049
(Photos from Titanic: Honor & Glory Website)

As for the Telegraphs, it's very hard to find just general replicas that actually look accurate (and aren't the size of a keyring) so to get the option of two decently scaled ones is great. :)

Back to Topic!
Telegraphs do look good. Would potentially be interested in one down the track if they don't require the house to be sold to afford one.

Wondering if the members above could elaborate slightly about the theories regarding the scale model? I'm a bit out of the loop.
 
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Bob_Read

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Item: After the preview of the Trumpeter Titanic in Nuremburg earlier this year, the outcry on social media about the number of errors in the kit was so great that Trumpeter reached out to several different knowledgeable people in the Titanic community to assist them in addressing the errors.

Item: THG was one of the groups advising Trumpeter and they advertised that they would be doing an "unbiased" evaluation.

Item: THG signed nondisclosure agreements with Trumpeter such that they could not release a list of the errors they found.

Item: After evaluating the kit and sending Trumpeter a list of corrections, THG members began actively promoting how great this kit is albeit with a few necessary corrections. Becoming a cheerleader for this kit when they sent a 1.5 gigabyte file to Trumpeter outlining corrections doesn't seem "unbiased". The question was why?

Item: Shortly after this THG announced that they would become a distributor for the kit and would receive financial benefit for each kit sold directly from them.

Item: Trumpeter recently released photos of an assembled kit with supposed improvements made with photoetched brass items. No explanation was given either by Trumpeter or THG whether these would be included in the kit when released.

Item: Trumpeter has never said what necessary corrections to the kt will be made and THG will not release the list of corrections they suggested so it is left to the modeler to try to sift through the kit after buying it to identify errors.

Rancor: I will leave it to you to draw your own conclusions about the parties involved, their actions, and the quality of the kit. At the very least, there has been a serious lack of transparency and conflict of interest.
 

Rancor

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Good detective work, and thank you for sharing your information.

Based on the above I would guess THG offered their services and knowledge for a cut of the sales. THG seem very secretive of their research so perhaps don't want the list of inaccuracies published for others to use in building their own models.
 
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Bob_Read

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I have also heard that Jonathan Smith of Titanic Tech reviewed the kit and had a very unfavorable review. But then again he had no financial interest. Funny how quickly integrity can go out the window when there’s a buck to be made.
 
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What do you want to hear? Some big conspiracy? No. We're not going to release the reviewed materials which has samples and research material (heavily watermarked) from the combined collection of our team to the public.

Again, the model I saw in Tennessee was very impressive and it was either Zeno's talented skills or the quality of the kit. But if you take a magnifying glass you're going to find lots of small errors.

This team gets beaten to death because of our lack of "sharing" mainly our research and references. More often than not we or the consultants on the team have spent lots of time and money to get those materials in our collection. It's not free.
 

Rancor

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Hey Matthew,

I do understand. One of your recent youtube videos showing the amount of detail the team goes to right down to the selection of the correct coat-hooks really opened my eyes to the amount of effort and research put in.

There will always be others though who are more used to anything Titanic related being 'open source' as it were.

Best of luck with the continued development of the game and I very much look forward to playing upon release. :)
 
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Bob_Read

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Matt: You are employing a straw man argument. Nobody is requesting to see all your research materials. THG was given the opportunity to review the Trumpeter kit and come up with a list of corrections which need to be made. It sounded like you were doing this not only for Trumpeter but for modelers. What modelers would like is a list of things THG found with your magnifying glass which will need to be corrected. The modelers can figure out how to correct the problems, they just need an honest appraisal of how much needs to be done. You might say that you don’t know what will be corrected by Trumpeter. Will THG follow up with a list of things which were not corrected? If your evaluation of this kit was solely for the benefit of Trumpeter that’s fine, but just say that. You seem to be implying that modelers who take a magnifying glass to their models are being too picky while at the same time you are employing standards on your game model which are beyond the pickiness of most modelers. The modeling public just wants somebody to shoot straight with them about this kit. Will THG do that? Somebody eventually will if you won’t but you could enhance your reputation if it came from you.
 

Zeno Silva

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Sep 18, 2019
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I will publicly copy/paste what I just wrote to Robert Read in his personal Facebook Messenger:

"To your last two “Items”:
ITEM: Not that owe you anything or anyone. We were never informed about what changes Trumpeter will or will not make. We learned about the new assembled “brass” kit just like everyone else. We were, in fact, the first ones posting about it when we saw it online.

ITEM: We never said we will not release the list of errors. In fact, I have said several times. We are waiting to see what Trumpeter will fix, it is utterly useless to just bash Trumpeter’s mistakes when they have a chance to fix them. I said this several times: Once Trumpeter is released and we asses what was changed we will help the community with what is left wrong.

You (Robert Read) questioning our integrity is very low. Jonathan Smith is a snob, I reached out to him as soon as I learned he was involved, he never replied. He began posting “exclusive” pictures on his Titanic Tech and saying the kit was marvelous despite its errors. Then all of a sudden he changed his mind when he found out we were also evaluating, started bashing the kit and began a long “drama” sequence of posts and comments on his page.

You want to stir this type of venom, at least be fair to all parts. I am disappointed, to say the least. I respect you a lot(Robert Read), but to question our integrity just because we did not “bash” a kit that needs corrections, or because we plan to sell it is just wrong. I will say again in case it’s not clear, we do not know what Trumpeter will and will not fix, so it doesn’t make any sense for anyone to keep complaining or assuming anything until Trumpeter comes out with a new version, THEN, we can assess and release a list of things still left.

The fact we will sell it DID NOT change the way or how many corrections we sent, this is simple and straightforward. Also didn’t change my perception or the dozens who saw it in person in Pigeon Forge. It was a consensus that Trumpeter has the best kit up to date, despite its flaws and I stand by this selling the kit or not.

In fact, the decision to sell the kit came when, after the trip to Pigeon Forge, we were contacted by Trumpeter’s distributor in the US, who wanted to borrow the assembled model to take to a model maker trade show in Vegas, while talking to them, they offered if we would like to sell it. Since I have been in charge of merchandising for THG having sold almost 1000 1/1000 ships I thought this can be a good idea. There is how and when we decided. So it had zero impact on our evaluation"

If people want to coal fire, or switch theorize out evaluation, feel free to do so, but first please know and learn the facts surrounding it.

I ask everyone: What is the point of releasing a list of all inaccuracies (I went back and actually double-checked the list folder, it has 2.72GB of data, in 496 files and 62 folders) If the whole purpose was to EVALUATE so Trumpeter can correct it? Why in the world people need to know what is wrong with the kit if we still don't know if they will fix it. If they fix 50% of stuff it is already a different list and we never said we wouldn't help the community back saying what is wrong!

SO in short, let's just wait for Trumpeter, let us see what they fix. I will say again, this is the most accurate kit available. Period. Whether I am selling it or not, this is a fact that can be verified by a lot of people at Titanic Conference. This kit is just immeasurably better than Miinicraft to assemble through a modeler's point of view. No sanding, bending, cutting, to make the hull fit the superstructure. So why in the world wouldn't I publicly recognize Trumpeter for this? Could they have done better, YES, that's why we provided a list. Could Trumpeter have asked the experts before making the steel molds? ABSOLUTELY. But they didn't and they decided to listen to the community, and let's not fool ourselves, even though we like to rivet count, they would sell this kit like hot pie even with its current state because most people just don't care, but they heard and are fixing it. Again, why would I be bitter about this? Do I have to beat them just for the sake of being "unbiased"? English might be my first language so maybe unbiased means being harsh because I will sell it?
 

Zeno Silva

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Sep 18, 2019
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Matt: You are employing a straw man argument. Nobody is requesting to see all your research materials. THG was given the opportunity to review the Trumpeter kit and come up with a list of corrections which need to be made. It sounded like you were doing this not only for Trumpeter but for modelers. What modelers would like is a list of things THG found with your magnifying glass which will need to be corrected. The modelers can figure out how to correct the problems, they just need an honest appraisal of how much needs to be done. You might say that you don’t know what will be corrected by Trumpeter. Will THG follow up with a list of things which were not corrected? If your evaluation of this kit was solely for the benefit of Trumpeter that’s fine, but just say that. You seem to be implying that modelers who take a magnifying glass to their models are being too picky while at the same time you are employing standards on your game model which are beyond the pickiness of most modelers. The modeling public just wants somebody to shoot straight with them about this kit. Will THG do that? Somebody eventually will if you won’t but you could enhance your reputation if it came from you.
This has been answered several times in our Facebook group RMS Titanic Model and Research. Yes we will follow through and compile a list of what needs to be corrected.

Titanic Honor and Glory has been straight to the community about this. We couldn't be more transparent. It is just early to go about and post a list since we still just don't know.

If you were questioning our integrity, after Trumpeter has released the revised kit and IF we kept all inaccuracies to ourselves then you would be correct to do so. But now? We don't know what, or when Trumpeter will release. They don't tell us things also, why should they? They don't owe THG anything more than they owe the community.
 

Bob_Read

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Zeno: Don’t you see the problem with not releasing the list of necessary corrections now? If you wait until the kit is released then there are a lot of people who have advanced ordered who will get the kit without any idea of what may or may not get corrected. It is probably unwise to pre-order a kit like this. Why don’t you ask Trumpeter to allow THG to do a final evaluation maybe a month before it’s release otherwise you won’t sell or endorse the kit? Now that would convince me that THG is on the side of the angels.
 
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Zeno: Don’t you see the problem with not releasing the list of necessary corrections now? If you wait until the kit is released then there are a lot of people who have advanced ordered who will get the kit without any idea of what may or may not get corrected. It is probably unwise to pre-order a kit like this. Why don’t you ask Trumpeter to allow THG to do a final evaluation maybe a month before it’s release otherwise you won’t sell or endorse the kit? Now that would convince me that THG is on the side of the angels.
Dear Bob,

I think the idea regarding the selling of the model could possibly be the following:
A) As already explained, the model is already the best one available to the public, regardless of the minor errors it may currently have. Even if Trumpeter failed to change even one of these errors, you will still have a great public model, and H&G would still sell it, thus eliminating the idea that their corrections are the reason they are selling it on the store.
B) For a company to delay such a large product for the length of time they already have to get evaluations from a group in the community, seems to be a miracle in itself. Thus, to delay it even further for a second round of corrections would not be the wisest course, considering how much they have already delayed it. Seeing the past history of models and most Titanic related items, the fact of even asking for a second opinion is a step in the right direction. In ideal conditions, it would be great for the model to be delayed even further to make sure that it is even more perfect, but that realistically can not happen in the business world sadly.
C) I think the idea that we should not pre order it until we know what was fixed is a little crazy, i am under the impression that H&G was asked for corrections, and then to sellsome kits on their store, and nothing beyond that. They do not have control on what Trumpeter can or cant do as it's their product, and its up to them even if they act on the corrections.

I can understand the frustration with the lack of details or lack of sharing the information, but with so much of this paticular venture out of control of the team members, it would seem to me that the wisest course right now is to sit and wait to see what happens before lashing out on a model that none of us even have yet.
 

Bob_Read

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The model is the best one available to the public? I guess that’s what we’ve been told. You’re probably right, we should all keep our mouths shut and not ask anything of Trumpeter that might make them uncomfortable. They are after all doing us a big favor by taking our money.
 

Zeno Silva

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Sep 18, 2019
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The model is the best one available to the public? I guess that’s what we’ve been told. You’re probably right, we should all keep our mouths shut and not ask anything of Trumpeter that might make them uncomfortable. They are after all doing us a big favor by taking our money.
Robert,

I might be missing something here, but it’s a consensus, between me, Kyle, Matt and Tom (we actually have analyzed the model for weeks) that this is the best model available to date. We never said it is perfect, hence the amount of corrections we identified. I have posted several detailed pictures. If you disagree with that statement, please refresh my mind of what model available currently (not comparing) is more accurate as is?

You seem suspicious about our conflict of interest, even after I explained that we decided to sell very recently, it’s actually clear in the video posted because we say in the upcoming weeks, if that was something done earlier it would ready by now. I like to always start a discussion or talk believing in what people say. So I am very transparent when I say:

A- Out of the available models, this is the most accurate one. I have seen it in person, every inch of it.
B- Our review finished before we decided we wanted to sell.
C- Everything I said is true and have no reason to sugar coat, our agreement with Trumpeter was only to evaluate it, we will receive our compensation for our work, they don’t have to tell us what is going to be changed or not.


Lastly nobody is criticizing you for talking about Trumpeter, but the way you are foing you are directly associating your opinion about it to our integrity, saying we are compromised, which is just not true.
 
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Bob_Read

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Zeno: Trumpeter doesn’t have to do what you suggest but why don’t you ask them to allow you to evaluate the improvements and publish that review one month before they release it or THG will not sell it or promote it? Trust is earned. Do that and all trust issues will evaporate. At least for me.