Titanic Or Olympic


K

Kenneth Lee Ormerod

Guest
I have just finished reading Riddle of the Titanic and its got me pondering, with the loss of damages through the courts for the Hawke collision and escalating loss of earnings in dry dock, Is it conceivable that a cover up was actually made and the two sisters were switched.
 
Feb 14, 2011
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Welll where do I begin?
The window placement on B deck differs between ther two ships, the '401' on the wreck's propellor, the odds Ismay and Andrews would be party to such a switch are zero, etc, etc...
The Olympic/Titanic switch theory seems as likly to me as the theory that Pres Kennedy was in fact shot by the limo driver...It doesnt add up..

regards

Tarn Stephanos
 
Jul 10, 2009
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Welcome aboard Kenneth,
This has already been discussed in the thread "BELIEVE IT OR NOT". It's pretty far down there.
Again, welcome aboard.
 

Dave Gittins

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Apr 11, 2001
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Kenneth, read page 261 again. The authors admit the switch didn't happen.

I'm always amazed at the number of people who have no special interest in Titanic who have heard of this pile of bovine ordure. Was it the subject of a TV program at some time?
 
Dec 2, 2000
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Easley South Carolina
Kenneth...the short answer is "no" and Robin Gardiner is well aware of that. Aware enough in fact that at the very end of this tome, he fesses up to the fact that it really is the Titanic at the bottom of the ocean and not the Olympic. See page 261 as Dave indicated. That Gardiner has persisted with this fantasy even after this admission in subsequent books and does this in full knowladge that it's bogus is nothing less then academic fraud.

The whole premise has any number of absolutely fatal flaws, not the least of which is that one does not need elaborate conspiracies to pull off an insurance scam. All you need is the constructive total loss of the vessel, and that it's easily enough arranged in the middle of the night by an enterprising lad with a can or two of petrol and a match.

Certainly a lot cheaper then the expense that would be required to refit one ship to look like another and a lot more discreet. You don't even have to get underway.
 

Dorothy Stout

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Feb 9, 2005
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I've read both books by Robin Gardner, The Riddle of the Titanic and The Ship That Never Sank? and after reading the first one I too felt that it was written as a 'publicity stunt' and that his theories didn't have much credence. But after reading his second book, the Ship That Never Sank?, I'm not so absolutely sure he's wrong and you could forgive anyone who isn't very well read on the Titanic for believing what he writes.

The book is very involved and I've read it twice and I've taken to writing down the main bullet points of his observations and I am in the process of shooting them down one by one.
 

Inger Sheil

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Dec 3, 2000
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Good idea to do that, Dorothy - go through his main contentions and critically examine them one at a time. Unfortunately, you're correct - for someone not well read on the subject, it is easy to believe his arguments (although commonsense generally rings a few alarm bells). This is because he presents a deeply skewed interpretation of the material that is often innacurate, taken out of context or distorted. If you don't know the counter arguments, it can sound superficially convincing.

Let us know your thoughts when you've examined the main thrust of his contentions!
 
Dec 2, 2000
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>>I'm not so absolutely sure he's wrong and you could forgive anyone who isn't very well read on the Titanic for believing what he writes. <<

Dorothy, I never had any doubt that he was wrong...and in point of fact...either deliberately misleading or has actually come to believe his own premise. However, I've spent a lifetime around ships and the sea, so I have an unfair advantage. You might find this tidbit from the U.S. Inquiry's final report to be of interest Which you may read for yourself at This Hotlink

quote:

The vessel, fully equipped, cost £1,500,000 sterling, or about $7,500,000.

At the time of the accident the vessel carried insurance of £1,000,000 sterling or about $5,000,000, the remaining risk being carried by the company's insurance fund.

In other words, Gardiner would have me believe that White Star would go to the huge expense of converting each vessel to look like the other, in full view of up to 14,000 shipyard workers...who I gaurantee you wouldn't keep quiet...only to pull off a scam where they would ultimately be ripping themselves off to the tune of an additional £500,000.

While I have no illusions that any of White Star's officers were saints who would never go for a questionable deal or dozen, they just weren't that stupid.
wink.gif
 

Dorothy Stout

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Feb 9, 2005
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Thanks for the comments Inger and Michael

Just thought I'd let you know a couple of points Robin Gardiner makes that are easy to disprove.

He states that 'Second Officer Lightoller said that it took him a fortnight before he could find his way around the ship with any confidence. Lightoller's statement is of interest in as much as the ship sank only 13 days after leaving the builders'. Maybe so but Second Officer Lightoller actually boarded the ship on 20th March 1912.

Likewise Gardiner asserts that Chief Officer Wilde only joined the ship on the morning of departure and therefore queries the meaning of his statement in his letter 'I STILL don't like this ship'. Chief Officer Wilde actually reported to Captain Smith on board the Titanic on 4th April 1912.

I can't make up mind whether Robin Gardiner does poor research or simply twists the facts for his convenience.

I'll let you know as and when I find any others.

As a matter of interest, could you tell where on page 261 Gardiner admits the switch didn't happen. I've read and re-read that page and I can't see it. Have you all got a different edition to me?
 

Dave Gittins

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Apr 11, 2001
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Sorry, Dorothy, but I wasn't mug enough to buy the first book. It exists as The Riddle of the Titanic or The Titanic Conspiracy, depending on where it was published. In the version I've read, page 261 was the second to last page.

Personally, I can't think why you want to waste time analysing this stuff. Why not consider whether the moon is made of green cheese?
 
Dec 2, 2000
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>>I can't make up mind whether Robin Gardiner does poor research or simply twists the facts for his convenience.<<

Try (c)...all of the above. All I can say at this point is that this particular fantasy has been an annoyance to the Titanic community for quite some time now...particularly to the techies who know the literally hundreds of differences between the two ships.

But what the hell...why let a few inconvenient facts get in the way of a good yarn?
 

Inger Sheil

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Dec 3, 2000
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Good points there, Dorothy. Dave, I don't think it's necessarily a waste of time. Shredding Gardiner is a bit of a team sport, and picking apart the ediface of distortions and fabrications he's built up can hone the old critical abilities. It may be shooting fish in a barrel, but given the wide market that these books received, it's almost a community service.
 

Sally Butler

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Mar 28, 2003
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Unless this board has the ability to reach out to the 11 million individuals that have bought copies of these two books, or the millions more that have borrowed the books from libraries all around the world than your facing a daunting task indeed.
Talking about the conspiracy always invites the familiar responses. Be cautious your not used as the Cats Paw and encouraged (or baited) into spending hundreds of hours pursuing someone else’s pet hate.
If your going to do it, don’t be selective in what you attempt to counter -get into everything dubious within the books. Unfortunately by the time your finished, you’ll end up with volumes of material that will (in the end) not even put a scratch upon the paintwork of the conspiracy juggernaut. If you managed to put together sufficient material to (lets say) consider doing a book countering the theory - than try getting a publisher to put the book into print. The publisher would say - WHAT - you have a book that takes 100’s of pages to tell the world that the ship discovered by Ballard and which all the world knows is Titanic IS Titanic. LOL
If your really interested in what people have previously discussed about why the books are incorrect - than do a google search or go to AHOLT / .history.ocean-liners.titanic, and read the hundreds of posts there.
Unfortunately for people that believe in the conspiracy, nothing you write will change their opinions. Millions of copies are happily sitting in bookcases all around the world.
Sorry to be negative, but over the years the conspiracy path is littered with people who honestly attempted to counter the books (item by item) and simply had to walk away after months and months of work because you’ll only be attempting to convince the people that don’t need convincing.
Along the way, don’t make the mistake of talking about presenting material that appears to support his books or you’ll either be absolutely ignored or worse - they’ll be all over you like a rash.
Either way - best of luck and I certainly look forward to reading your material which will hopefully put the conspiracy theorists straight once and for all. (just remember for those that don’t know of or have read his books simply won’t have a clue what your talking about - so they may be obliged to purchase copies themselves to appreciate the material your presenting) Along the ways, the said books will be receiving free publicity and the exchanging of opinions posted here will generate further interest thereby prompting / promoting additional sales.
In the end, there is only ever going to be one winner.
 

Steven Hall

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Dec 17, 2008
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Knowing what I know about the two ships, I still enjoyed the reading of the books.
I still think the Titanic movie would have been good if the twist on the conpiracy had been the main theme.
You just have to enjoy what you read or watch and I believe I got my monies worth from both the movie and books. All this was but in 19 hundred and frozen stiff. It’s 2003 and things have moved on since then. The new material coming through is what I like to read and that’s the prime point my gaze is focused on. There is always going to be a few curved balls, its up to the player to play each ball on its merit.
 

Jeremy Lee

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Jun 12, 2003
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The story is a make up as it is proven that parts of the wreck on the seabed are stamped '401', which IS Titanic's number.
 
Jan 5, 2001
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Speaking for myself, I just find it funny that this theory keeps cropping up. Just imagine all the personal possessions, first year's signs of wear and tear or scratches, paperwork, individual equipment, and other things, that would need to be swapped. Common sense should debunk it.

Best regards,

Mark.
 
Jan 5, 2001
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Has some of this thread been lost? Or am I getting forgetful? I thought there were one or two posts after mine of 10.03 a.m. this morning.

Best,

Mark.
 

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