Titanic survivor in a concentration camp

[Dennis Foley]

I'm Reading "Ghosts of Titanic" by Charles Pellegrino. On pg. 16 he says that a Titanic survivor likened the "sounds" of the people struggling in the water to those he heard upon entering Buchenwald, a Nazi concentration camp. I can't imagine surviving two of the worst disasters of the 20th C. Anyone know who this survivor was? Thanks.

 

[John M. Feeney]

Hi, Dennis:

I can't actually answer your query directly, but I can tell you that the jury's still WELL out on the historical accuracy of *some* of Pellegrino's assertions and reconstructions. Since, in many cases, he claims to have worked from personal recollections garnered by himself and Walter Lord, there may be no way currently to establish which survivor he may have had in mind.

However, there are some rather lengthy Newsgroup threads on Pellegrino's work at alt.history.ocean-liners.titanic, wherein "Ed the Engineer" -- a friend of Dr. P's -- has stated that he will be posting those source files online on a web site he's constructing. (See Deja.com for backtracking of this discussion, and note: the dialogue is not for the feint of heart. It gets fairly bloody in spots!)

Should this occur -- I'm reserving judgement myself till it happens -- there should be a wealth of "new" information, some of which may identify this individual.

(On the other hand, someone else out here may well know who Dr. Pellegrino is likely to be referring to.)

Regards,
John Feeney

 

[Phillip Gowan]

The reference may be to Edward Navratil--the only survivor I know of who was actually a prisoner of the Nazis at one time. Antoinette Flegenheimer also returned to live in Germany after Titanic and as yet her final fate hasn't been determined. As she was a well-to-do Jewish woman, she may have found herself in jeopardy if she lived that long and remained in Germany.

 

[John M. Feeney]

Hi, Phil:

Believe it or not -- though I kind of suspected that the "Reparations" mindset would encourage this -- Buchenwald has a Web presence, as well as an in-progress database project to identify former prisoners: http://www.buchenwald.de/index-e.html

Unfortunately -- as one might expect -- the historical records themselves were far from exhaustive -- and the project itself is still underway(?). I did a search on both names you gave, but with no match. (And unfortunately for many -- though I can navigate to some extent here -- matches on other names I tried were strictly "auf Deutsch".) Oh, well.

Cheers!
John Feeney

 

[Phillip Gowan]

John,
Am not sure if this would help but just so all bases are covered:

Antoinette Flegenheimer apparently shortened her surname to Flegenheim after her husband died in 1907. And in 1913 she was using the surname Whitehurst or White-Hurst. She was living in Berlin prior to World War I but drops off the radar at that time.

Good luck,
Phil

 

[Maureen Zottoli]

Phil Gowan,
Just curious question for you Phil, "White" is an English derivative of "Weiss"...could a phoenetic search be done to capture all derivatives of this name to help complete your search?
Maureen.

 

[John M. Feeney]

Hi, Phil (and Maureen and Dennis)!

God, am I pooped! I got a little carried away with this one, and went hog wild at Buchenwald, various Holocaust sites, Jewish Genealogy, and just plain HotBot searches.

Still, I couldn't locate anything definite on our mystery lady. I tried "Flegenheim" and "Flegenheimer" -- there was a Betty Flegenheimer from Augsburg at Auschwitz, but wrong maiden name (Loeffel): 'Flegenheimer, Betty; nee Loeffel; Augsburg; born 29. 11. 1882; Auschwitz'

Tried Liche, White, Whitehurst, White-Hurst, Hurst, even Hoerst. Plus Pflegenheim, Fliggenheim, Fliegenheim, and others, including all "er" endings on same. (I did take a stab or two at Weiss, Maureen, but didn't get anywhere in particular on that one, and ceased entirely when I realized the hubby (White-Hurst) was quite English. However, there is an earlier post out there on the "Whitehurst family genealogy page" requesting info on Antoinette -- doesn't look like the man got any responses.

On Augsburg's (hometown) list, at least, Liche (her maiden name) would have sufficed, since they were fairly meticulous with that information. But two points: 1) Even Augsburg's list is still incomplete, according to them; 2) Buchenwald's list per se appears to not be fully operational at all. Name searches there currently seem to only yield results if the individual is noted for some reason on a summary info page.

On the off chance that it really is Mrs. Flegenheim Pellegrino referred to, I'll drop Ed a line and see if he knows. Otherwise, I seem to be "beating a dead horse". (Though, of course, I'm a glutton for punishment, and will probably keep looking for her anyway!)

Cheers!

 

[Dave Gittins]

Need it have been a prisoner? How about a German or Allied soldier or simply a worker at the camp?

 

[John M. Feeney]

Hi, Dave!

Hmmm ... Good point! (Hadn't thought of that.) Pellegrino's quote does, at first glance, read like an inmate account, but maybe not:

"It was a surreal, supernatural moan, and one witness would report hearing that same sound again, years later, when he reached the Buchenwald death camp." (C.Pellegrino, "Ghosts of Titanic")​

Yeah, that could easily be one of the Liberators, too. Or a camp worker. Thanks, guy!

(The plot thickens ...)

Cheers!
JMF

 

[John M. Feeney]

"On 11th April 1945, units of the 3rd US Army reached Ettersberg Hill. The SS fled and the prisoners belonging to the clandestine resistance organization opened the camp from within.
More than 250,000 people were held captive in the camp between 1937 and 1945, and more than 50,000 of them died during this time." (Buchenwald Memorial Web Site -- History of Buchenwald)

Just wanted to post this as follow-up to Dave's observations. I was unsure who the liberators were, and thought they might even have been the Russians. (Not so!) So, if it was one of the liberators, he was in the U.S. 3rd Army in 1945.

(Note: Ettersberg Hill (above) was the actual geographic place name for the "Buchenwald" camp. The camp name itself was merely coined.)

 

[Dennis Foley]

Sounds like it's Navatril! Thanks guys this has been (morbid!!) fun! Dennis

 

[John M. Feeney]

Hi, Dennis:

I did get a response from Ed (Pellegrino's friend) indicating he'd ask about this. Will post as soon as I hear. I think you're probably right about Navratil, but at least once I've heard back we'll know who Dr. P had in mind. (My other searches came up blank, as did any *online* references to Navratil in this context.)

And, hey -- "Morbid" is my middle name.

Cheers!
John M. Feeney

 

[John M. Feeney]

Hi, all:

Well, I got an answer on this question indirectly from Charles Pellegrino. Unfortunately, it's not a very complete answer. The comment apparently sprang originally from a conversation with Walter Lord, which Dr.Pellegrino had recalled, but which was not documented as to who (by name) had made the observation.

Dr. Pellegrino relayed that it was definitely a male, and NOT a Buchenwald inmate, but one of the liberators. He surmised that it may have indeed been Edmond Navratil, but couldn't swear to it.

So what we have at this point, barring positive identification by Walter Lord or consultation with Michel Navratil concerning his brother's possible involvement, is merely the ability to rule out female passengers and former prisoners of Buchenwald, restricting the search to male liberators alone.

And at that point, I'm quite out of my league.

Regards,
John Feeney