Titanic Women and Children First by Judith Geller

Arun Vajpey

Arun Vajpey

Member
That link takes you to the well researched occupancy of Lifeboat #11; while it is not yet complete, I believe those survivors mentioned in the list were rescued on that lifeboat. Mildred Brown and Elizabeth Nye were roommates and were rescued on Lifeboat #11, as were Alice Cleaver and Trevor Allison; coincidentally. Alice Cleaver and Mildred (Amelia) Brown were employed by Hudson Allison.

The ET sources are well researched and based on collation and comparison of survivor accounts and circumstantial evidence. While no one can be 100% certain about lifeboat occupancies, sources like ET and research by the likes of Sam Halpern, George Behe, Paul Lee and authors of On A Sea Of Glass come as close to the truth as possible. Frankly George, you sometimes seem to challenge something just for the sake of doing so and initiate a needless debate over nothing. All I can say is that the sources that I have mentioned above and others like them are far more reliable than the sensationalist trash of a book (I did not mean Geller's book. I think you know the one that I am talking about) that you often quote to be good research material. But then it is your choice to believe what you wish and I don't see much point in continuing this line of discussion.
 
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George Jacub

Member
That link takes you to the well researched occupancy of Lifeboat #11; while it is not yet complete, I believe those survivors mentioned in the list were rescued on that lifeboat. Mildred Brown and Elizabeth Nye were roommates and were rescued on Lifeboat #11, as were Alice Cleaver and Trevor Allison; coincidentally. Alice Cleaver and Mildred (Amelia) Brown were employed by Hudson Allison.

The ET sources are well researched and based on collation and comparison of survivor accounts and circumstantial evidence. While no one can be 100% certain about lifeboat occupancies, sources like ET and research by the likes of Sam Halpern, George Behe, Paul Lee and authors of On A Sea Of Glass come as close to the truth as possible. Frankly George, you sometimes seem to challenge something just for the sake of doing so and initiate a needless debate over nothing. All I can say is that the sources that I have mentioned above and others like them are far more reliable than the sensationalist trash of a book (I did not mean Geller's book. I think you know the one that I am talking about) that you often quote to be good research material. But then it is your choice to believe what you wish and I don't see much point in continuing this line of discussion.
In short, you have no idea where this false story originated but you're willing to spread it. Is there anyone on this thread who can illuminate the source of Allison-child-in-No. 11 legend?
 
Arun Vajpey

Arun Vajpey

Member
In short, you have no idea where this false story originated but you're willing to spread it. Is there anyone on this thread who can illuminate the source of Allison-child-in-No. 11 legend?
So, according to your wonderful "sources" which seem to only 'communicate' with you, in which lifeboat was Trevor Allison rescued? Lifeboat #17 or Collapsible E perhaps? :rolleyes:
 
Thomas Krom

Thomas Krom

Member
According to Peter Engberg First class passenger Alice Gray Silvey (1872-1958), who was in lifeboat number 11, recalled in one of the two interviews she gave in Duluth that Miss Cleaver and young master Allison were in the lifeboat with her. Amalia Brown recalled in a letter towards her parents that Miss Cleaver was in the same lifeboat as her.

Although it's purely speculative, considering Richard Fulton Becker was around the same age, it has been speculated that the baby boy who was the first to leave the lifeboat, as mentioned by First class passenger Edith Louise Rosenbaum (1879-1975), was Hudson.
 
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Arun Vajpey

Arun Vajpey

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Also, somewhere on their way to the boat deck, Alice Cleaver and baby Trevor Allison encountered Bedroom Steward William Faulkner. He accompanied them to where Lifeboat #11 was being loaded and held on to the baby while Alice got in and then passed the baby to her. Faulkner was then allowed to follow them into the lifeboat and was therefore another survivor of Lifeboat #11.
 
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George Jacub

Member
According to Peter Engberg First class passenger Alice Gray Silvey (1872-1958), who was in lifeboat number 11, recalled in one of the two interviews she gave in Duluth that Miss Cleaver and young master Allison were in the lifeboat with her. Amalia Brown recalled in a letter towards her parents that Miss Cleaver was in the same lifeboat as her.

Although it's purely speculative, considering Richard Fulton Becker was around the same age, it has been speculated that the baby boy who was the first to leave the lifeboat, as mentioned by First class passenger Edith Louise Rosenbaum (1879-1975), was Hudson.
Thank you. At last we're getting somewhere.

The trick was to find the interviews that Alice Silvey gave and the letter Amelia Brown wrote.

The relevant Silvey interview appeared in the Duluth Herald on May 1, 1912 under the headline 'Mrs. Silvey Tells Of Her Escape From The Sinking Titanic'. https://ia800501.us.archive.org/7/items/may1191201dulu/may1191201dulu.pdf

The mention of Trevor Allison was in the following paragraph (emphasis mine) :

"Some of the women in the boat had not taken the precaution to dress warmly and they suffered from the exposure.There were four babies, three of them motherless. One was the Allison child, which was saved with its nurse while the mother and father went down. The babies had been wrapped in blankets and thrown into the lifeboat."

Amelia Brown's letter can be found both on the Encyclopedia Titanica site and in George Behe's book 'On Board RMS Titanic'. There are minor discrepancies between the versions of the same letter which are puzzling but they don't affect the issue at hand. The letter is dated April 17, 1912 "On board the Carpathia". She wrote (emphasis mine, again) :

"No sooner was I on deck than I was bustled to the first class deck and pushed into one of the boats, and I found nurse and the baby there..."

And later...

"I have not seen Mr. and Mrs. Allison or Loraine so I suppose they have gone under, but there is just the chance they may have been picked up by another ship. I'm not going to worry about it, and they have several friends on board, and then there are the partners of the firm..."

Miss Brown entered a lifeboat that was loaded on "the first class deck." No. 11 was loaded on A deck.

Why is she placed in No. 11?
 
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George Jacub

Member
Also, somewhere on their way to the boat deck, Alice Cleaver and baby Trevor Allison encountered Bedroom Steward William Faulkner. He accompanied them to where Lifeboat #11 was being loaded and held on to the baby while Alice got in and then passed the baby to her. Faulkner was then allowed to follow them into the lifeboat and was therefore another survivor of Lifeboat #11.
Once again, I have to ask what is the source of this gem?

I have an interview with Steward Faulkner where he tells what boat he was saved in, and it's certainly NOT lifeboat No. 11. And, as you might guess, he makes no mention of Alice Cleaver and Trevor Allison, of "accompanying" them to any lifeboat, or of holding a baby "while Alice got in."
 
Arun Vajpey

Arun Vajpey

Member
As I have said before, the source is Faulkner's bio here on ET with contributions from Gavin Bell, Peter-Engberg Klarstrom and Trevor Baxter. They are all respected, serious researchers and while there may be viewpoints upon which there are disagreements with other experts, I would consider their (and those of others like them) views any day than those of someone who indulges in cheap confrontations based on third rate melodramatic "sources" of which his own dreadful blog is the best example.

Enough said.
 
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George Jacub

Member
As I have said before, the source is Faulkner's bio here on ET with contributions from Gavin Bell, Peter-Engberg Klarstrom and Trevor Baxter. They are all respected, serious researchers and while there may be viewpoints upon which there are disagreements with other experts, I would consider their (and those of others like them) views any day than those of someone who indulges in cheap confrontations based on third rate melodramatic "sources" of which his own dreadful blog is the best example.

Enough said.
The Faulkner bio contains one paragraph regarding the Allison baby.

"On the night of the sinking, William was assisting to fill and lower the aft starboard lifeboats.
" Says who? Not Faulkner.

"He was reportedly handed the infant Trevor Hudson Allison, a first class passenger, whilst the child's nanny Alice Catherine Cleaver was assisted into lifeboat 11. William, with a child in his arms, was permitted to follow suit. Following rescue by the Carpathia, and during the voyage to New York, Faulkner was reportedly the only person whom Alice Cleaver would let visit the orphaned child." Reportedly by whom? When?

The bio cites two newspaper articles. One from 1912 says Faulkner was safe. The other from 1941 says he had died.
Two other articles provided by Brian Ticehurst in 2007 (William Stephen Faulkner) make no mention of Faulkner's efforts at the aft starboard boats or his saving little Trevor Allison.

As with the Trevor Allison bio there must be an original source somewhere for the Faulkner legend. Anyone?
 
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