Titanic's Achilles Heel History Channel

  • Thread starter Parks Stephenson
  • Start date
B

Bob Read

Guest
Parks:
I guess smart alec comments are in the eye of the beholder. That was not the intent of my comment. My comment was in fact a rhetorical question that requires no answer. It is a point that I predict will be reiterated in the coming days and not only by me. If you take the question as non-rhetorical then I would challenge anyone to look at the reliability of mathematical modeling to predict real world events with a high degree of certainty. The more unknowns and variables in the equation, the lower the reliability. But, have a good Father's Day as I will. There will be ample time to debate these matters further.

Regards,
Bob Read
 
W

Will C. White

Member
I know about the WNA line. My only point was that in the sea conditions described, a single wave that caused the described damage must have been an extraordinary one; a giant amidst giants. As to "Posideon", that's a story-ship killing waves do exist-I believe the Queen Mary also shed one that blew out bridge windows and took her some distance over onto her beam. As to modeling-there's always an 'X' factor in real world that cannot be quite discovered and compensated for. Two "exact" items may be identically tested-one fails, one does not; thank heavens for reverse engineering!
 
T

Tarn Stephanos

Member
so far, it's very interesting...A bit scathing on the quality of Harland & Wolff engineering...
 
T

Tarn Stephanos

Member
Well, the forward expansion joint opened up enough to cause the collapse of the # 1 funnel- so perhaps there is validity to the theory the expansion joints weakened the hull...
 
I

i_wanna_be_pretty14

Member
I am watching it right now. And what I found to be interesting was how Ismay signed something as "Yamsi". He signed a message sent by him through the Carpathia's wireless system about having a ship come to America and pick up the surviving crew quickly. Could he possibly have wanted to leave America quickly because he had something to hide?? It is an interesting thought.

And if what I just said makes no sense, it may be because I missed part of the show on account of having to take a shower.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Cam Houseman
T

Tim Foecke

Member
I've been saying for 10 years in scientific and engineering talks on the Titanic that the expansion joint turned the ship into the worlds largest hollow shell three-point bend specimen. And one of the guys who have seen my talk was Eager Beaver (Tom Eagar, Prof at MIT).

Where's my reference? :^)

Awful lot of fluff and padding in this show.
 
T

Tarn Stephanos

Member
"Awful lot of fluff and padding in this show."
QUOTE


A problem with MANY documentaries is way too much time is spent on showing talking heads, and not enough time is spent on showing the wreck footage- I understand the logic of building suspense by showing the prime footage towards the end, but it can be a trifle frustrating..

However, I would like to have seen or heard more from Parks or Ken, as I suspect they had a better grasp of the forensics of the breakup than most of the people involved.
There was a great deal of time eaten up by surface footage that should have been filled with footage of the Titanic or Britannic wreck- The people involved could still speak, but I wanted to see more wreck footage..
BUT it was interesting, and the theory that the expansion joint created a weakness in the hull is a valid theory....

I'm curious what hull damage, if any, can be found on the bow section, beneath Titanic's forward expansion joint? The forward expansion joint is a foot or so accross, so that seems to offer credence to the theory the expansion joint created a weakness...
But was it the aft expansion joint- or the open spaces created by the aft grand staircase and reciprocating engine uptake that weakened the area where the Titanic split? Were it these open spaces- OR the expansion joint (or both)that proved the death knell for the ship ?
 
S

Scott R. Andrews

Guest
Tarn,

The whole question of the expansion joints fails to address the simple fact that they stopped short of breaching any of the heavy structural plating of the sheer strakes or of the Bridge deck itself. (I'm looking at the very same expansion joint drawings you saw on the show as I type this, plus I'm looking at the Bridge Deck iron drawing and Olympic's Bridge Deck Deckhouse drawing, which contains notes pertaining to the modifications to made to No. 401.) The joints started just above the top of the gunwale bars which are part of the hull proper; these are the heavy angle bars which join the vertical plating of the sheer strakes to the heavy stringer plates along the Bridge Deck's edges. The expansion joints run entirely within the light steelwork of the superstructure above this point, including the Boat and Promenade decks; their sole purpose was to relieve the light .38 to .20 inch thick plating of the superstructure decking, deckhouses and bulwarks from bearing the same tension and compression stresses as the top of the hull girder upon which these light structures were built, but they did not enter any portion of the main structure of the hull proper -- they stopped just above this.

Regards,
Scott Andrews
 
T

Tarn Stephanos

Member
It was a bit curious that the focus was squarely on the aft expansion joint, and not the spaces occupied by the aft grand staircase & the uptake for the reciprocating engine....
 
David G. Brown

David G. Brown

RIP
Scott--The H&W blueprints of Titanic's expansion joint that I have seen are apparently the same as the ones you refer to. They show the joint does affect the hull girder because the shell plating was effectively extended above the strength deck. Intentional or not, this was the result of attaching the bulwark to the outer edge of the strength deck.

On modern ships, this problem is avoided by allowing a small "slot" between the bulwark and the strength deck. Sometimes this slot is mistaken for a waterway, but its real purpose is isolation of two very different parts of the ship's structure.

So, the original Olympic class expansion joint was effectively a "notch" in an upward flange of the hull girder. That made it an unacceptable stress riser. However, things got worse. The end of the joint was simply given a radius equal to the width of the joint. These days, good naval architecture is to have significantly greater radius on openings in critical areas.

If the bulb-shaped endings of the joints discovered on Britannic are any indication, H&W realized the need to increase the radius of the joint ends. The learning curve was apparently alive and working quite well in the drawing office of Titanic's shipbuilder.

Expansion joints were needed to allow lightweight superstructure to be built on top of the hull girder. H&W engineers knew that as the ship moved through a seaway, the hull would bend and flex. They also knew that if the lightweight superstructure could be isolated from this flexing, it could be built more like buildings on shore with square corners to windows and doors. The two expansion joints were an attempt to accomplish this feat.

However, although the superstructure above the strength deck was not part of the hull, its existence did influence the flexing of the hull girder. In effect, each part of the superstructure acted as a doubler on top of the strength to help it resist bending. But, in way of the expansion joints there was suddenly no increased support for the strength deck.

This is why Dr. Foecke said, "I've been saying for 10 years in scientific and engineering talks on the Titanic that the expansion joint turned the ship into the worlds largest hollow shell three-point bend specimen."

Pulling the stern up out of the water caused a huge bending force to be applied to the hull girder. But, the expansion joints forced most of that bending into the after expansion joint. At some point, about 11 to 15 degrees of bow-down tilt, the strain became stronger than the strength of materials.

The role of the expansion joint came to light in studying the two pieces of double bottom that were pulled out as the ship broke apart. The two pieces apparently split in a direct vertical line below the aft expansion joint.

Wandering into my own speculation, I see a "girdling crack" similar to the one that caused the loss of the Great Lakes bulk freighter Argus in November, 1913. This ship simply broke up and sank while being observed by another ship, the Crawford. Captain Iler said, "The Argus seemed to crumple like an eggshell, then she was gone."

Waves in the 1913 storm on the Great Lakes exceeded 35 feet. This was at or beyond the design specifications for ships of that era. More than one suffered cracking as a result. Those cracked ships that survived seemed to have done so because their double bottoms held, while the single-thickness vertical sides and decks were breached.

As an aside, the steel in 1913-era Great Lakes ships was equivalent in quality to that in Titanic. I have found no evidence that any ships sank because of "brittle steel." However, many ships experienced rivet failures caused by flexing and bending of their hulls.

--David G. Brown
 
T

Tarn Stephanos

Member
It might prove worthwhile to explore Titanic's forward expansion joint on future dives....Perhaps there are some cracks and separations in the decks below the main superstructure..The fact the forward expansion joint is a foot across suggests there may be some overall bending of the hull at that point...
 
J

Julie Goebel

Member
I must disagree with how they made Lightoller to seem as if he were lying about being in the vicinity of icebergs. He never said in either inquiry that he was oblivious about seeing ice. To the contrary he said it would have been normal to see icebergs in the Grand Banks in April.

---------------------------------
Senator SMITH.
You knew you had struck something?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
Yes, sir.

Senator SMITH.
What did you assume it to be?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
Ice.

Senator SMITH.
Ice?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
Yes, sir.

Senator SMITH.
Why?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
That was the conclusion one naturally jumps to around the Banks there.

---------------------------

Senator SMITH.
You knew you were in the vicinity of icebergs; did you not?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
Water is absolutely no guide to icebergs, sir.

Senator SMITH.
I did not ask that. Did you know you were in the vicinity of icebergs?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
No, sir.

-------------------------

Senator SMITH.
Who succeeded you as officer of the ship?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
The first officer, Mr. Murdoch.

Senator SMITH.
Did you communicate to him this information that the captain had given you on the bridge?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
I communicated that when I was relieving him at 1 o'clock.

Senator SMITH.
What did you tell him?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
Exactly what was in the telegram.

Senator SMITH.
What did he say?

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
"All right.".

Senator SMITH.
So that the officers of the ship - the officer in charge, Mr. Murdoch, was fully advised by you that you were in proximity of these icebergs -

Mr. LIGHTOLLER.
I would hardly call that proximity.


He was right because the first iceberg that was sighted was at 11:40. I would certainly be very careful before I call him a liar, that is a very harsh word.
 
Brent Holt

Brent Holt

Member
Overall, I thought the documentary was fine, it asked new questions and attempted to answer them. There is certainly nothing wrong with that. It was also nice to see all three Olympic Class liners talked about instead of the typical "Titanic was a one-of-a-kind supership" mentality of other shows.
I think the last decade or so has seen a renaissance of serious Titanic research. People are actually challenging long-accepted "facts" and coming up with new possibilities and questions in the process.
One thing I noticed towards the end of the program was what I consider to be a misrepresentation of some of the structural "problems" Olympic had latter in her career. The issues were somewhat exaggerated and not put into the proper context. The other big liners of the same time period also had age-related stress damage and several were placed on the Board of Trade's Confidential list for a time.
 
T

Tarn Stephanos

Member
One exciting find at the Titanic wrecksite was the metal plate that once covered the aft expansion joint on Titanic's deck-presumably from the Boat deck- I wonder where this was found in relation to the stern section?....
 
P

Parks Stephenson

Member
Some quick thoughts on expansion joints:

The shape of Britannic's forward expansion joint became the standard for ships thereafter, for as long as expansion joints have been used in ships' superstructures. I don't know if Britannic was the first ship to utilise this design, but it does represent an ongoing improvement in design practiced by H&W.

Titanic's forward expansion joint did not open while she was still afloat on the surface as wide as can be seen today on the wreck. My conclusion after looking at hours upon hours of wreck imagery is that the expansion joint had nothing to do with the falling of the No. 1 funnel. That expansion joint was pushed open well past its limits by the sudden plowing into the ocean floor and subsequent settling of the aft end of the eviscerated bow section. Even so, hi-def imagery shows no deformation or cracking of the hull underneath the joint.

Diagrams of cracking observed in Olympic's upper structure do show that the sharp radius of the expansion joint cut in the superstructure did provide a focal point for stress concentration in the hull structure immediately below the joint. Simplistically speaking...no, the joint did not physically penetrate into the hull structure, but yes, it did influence the formation of cracking.

Parks
 
  • Like
Reactions: Cam Houseman
Top