Titanic's Babies

  • Thread starter bethany kay simmons
  • Start date

Ben Holme

Member
Feb 11, 2001
714
2
148
Presumably, Mrs. Harris requested the expertees of Henry Frauenthal becasue of his specific and detailed knowledge of joint wounds, of the kind poor Rene suffered. I seem to recall that O'Loughlin was first on the scene, and thought it best that his new patient's arm be strationed out, however as soon as Fraunthal's services were required, he removed the cast, insisting that the joint should be set at a complete bend.

Interestingly, I was unaware that Frauenthal accompanied Mrs. Harris in NY until Ing kindly dug up that article for me. I imagine that the NY passengers stuck together in the same way that Philadelphia scoiety seemed to do. Frauenthal was an internationally renown joint surgeon and the Harris' were similarly well known. Both were NY residents, so it is more than likely that they "mingled" at some stage.

Another passenger who likely suffered from sickness on boad was Julia Cavendish, at least according to her son, Henry Seigal Cavendish.

Best,

Ben
 
May 12, 2005
3,109
1
108
Lucy Duff Gordon had occasion to see Dr. O'Loughlin over an unspecified ailment while en route. It is referred to only briefly in a family letter so I know nothing more than that. It's possible that Lucy's visit from the doctor concerned the seasickness from which she suffered on the night of the disaster. But this is uncertain. I have always wondered if Cosmo, in his Inquiry testimony, was referring to her illness when he stated that they "had had rather a serious evening," etc. This has been thought to have been an understatement about the disaster but I am not sure if it wasn't actually a discreet reference to his wife's condition and his concern over her.

Lucy makes mention of O'Loughlin in her memoirs but not about seeing him privately. She just mentions his being seated near her in the restaurant on April 14.

The Rene Harris connection to Frauenthal is intriguing to me. I've never read the article referencing his accompanying her to a physician in New York and I don't recall any private correspondence among the material I've been working from on her.
 
M

Magnus Karlsson

Guest
I want to express sincere gratitude for answers from Bob Godfrey, Randy Brian Bigham,
Ben Holme,Inger Sheil, Daniel Klistorner, Dave Gittins for most interesting info and Kate Bortner (for the joke).
It's a pleasure to deal an interest with such experts!
Thanks Bob for your welcoming me!

I've found out an interesting thing in my research: some wore "cholera belt"'s - a homeo-
pathic method with its origin by British troops in India. Very interesting, indeed! Some used them also to wear valuable things in the belts - perhaps the earliest type of todays tourist belts around the waist?!
 

Inger Sheil

Member
Dec 3, 2000
5,342
34
208
Ta for those thoughts there, Ben. Randy, this was in the article from Lowe's collection that I scanned for you (have sent copies only to you and Ben, two passenger people with a particular interest in Rene!).

Good to see you here, Magnus. The image of a cholera belt as a precurser to the modern money belt is an interesting one.
 
May 12, 2005
3,109
1
108
Hi Ing,

Am still at work (yes it's nearly 7:30 p.m.!!) But am soon to be on my way home and will then look again at that article. It's just like me to miss a detail like that. Very sorry!

Magnus,

Not at all. You are surely welcome. I am glad you're "aboard."

Randy
 

Dave Gittins

Member
Apr 11, 2001
4,923
181
193
For the wonders of cholera belts, go to http://www.homeoint.org/books5/clarkecholera/part1.htm

In considering medical work on board Titanic, it should be remembered that the third class passengers had been screened before departure. The doctors' work would have been confined to treating accidents or perhaps problems of sudden onset, like heart attacks, strokes and so forth. Not that they could do a lot for the victims.
 
M

Magnus Karlsson

Guest
I've larnt that 3rd class passengers were medi-
cally examined before departure.
Two queries:
1/ They were, to my knowledge, examined for trachoma. Anything else? Smallpox vaccination or showing a certificate over that been performed?
2/ Why only passengers in 3rd class? I under-
stand in a way, but to travel in 1st or 2nd were no guarantee per se not to be contagious in some way. To me, it seems illogical and not very polite.
 

Bob Godfrey

Member
Nov 22, 2002
6,045
51
208
UK
Before boarding the ship the Third Class passengers were routinely examined for trachoma and head lice, but those with obvious symptoms of infectious disease like TB would also have been rooted out at this time. More comprehensive checks were made at Ellis Island after arrival in New York, but White Star were well aware that any immigrant rejected on health grounds in the US would need to be returned at their expense. The Americans were concerned about the health risks from mass immigration rather than 'ordinary' travellers, and whilst it may have been logical to check everybody, the First Class passengers in particular would not have tolerated the indignity and of course it was a reasonable assumption that few immigrants from poor backgrounds would be travelling in the 'cabin' classes. This, incidentally, is why US immigration regulations insisted that the Third Class passengers were strictly segregated from Second and First during the voyage.
 

Brian Ahern

Member
Dec 19, 2002
643
1
146
Hello Ben -
Where did you get the info from about Henry Siegel Cavendish and his mother's seasickness?

The Cavendishes have always been of particular interest to me, especially since they are almost never mentioned in survivor accounts. If Julia was sick in bed throughout much of the voyage, this might explain why.

Any info you can give would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Brian
 

Ben Holme

Member
Feb 11, 2001
714
2
148
Hi Brian,

Although Henry Cavendish passed away some considerable time before I became interested in Titanic's passengers, I have since learned - either from an article or through correspondance with a relative or another researcher, I can't quite recall - that Henry always believed that his mother suffered from sea-sickness whilst on board and that this may have prompted them to change cabins, hence the degree of uncertainty about their cabin number.

I share your frustration regarding the apparent scarcity of survivor accounts in which the couple are mentioned. I imagine, however, that they were fairly well-known among the British set in first class. The Duff-Gordon's undoubtely knew them, as did the Countess of Rothes, amongst others. I think I came across a contemporary newspaper artcile that mentioned an acquaintance between the Cavendishes and wire rope manufacturer, William Hipkins. Will try and dig that up. As you say, Julia's sickness may well have confined them to the cabin for the majority of the voyage.

Hope this helps,

Regards,
Ben
 
May 12, 2005
3,109
1
108
Ben is correct that the Duff Gordons knew the Cavendishes. Lucy gave a soiree in the summer of 1912 for her niece Margot Glyn (who was a deb that season) and, though in mourning, Julia Cavendish attended. So she was obviously a close family friend.
 

Brian Ahern

Member
Dec 19, 2002
643
1
146
Ben and Randy -
Thanks a million for those tidbits!

I guess, then, that they were part of the London social scene, as opposed to living quietly in the country like I generally picture them. Your info is in keeping, however, with something I read in contemporary Titanic newspaper coverage about Julia charming the British court. This isn't surprising since, judging from her photos, I'd say she arguably takes the prize for the foremost beauty in first class. Though she does have strong competition from the Fortune sisters, Jean Hippach and Dorothy Harder, to name but a few.

Thanks again,
Brian Ahern
 
M

Marykate Viola

Guest
About children being allowed in the dining facilities, I would guess that any child over the age of 11 would be allowed in the First Class Dining Saloon.
 
C

Caroline Chavez

Guest
Hi marykate Viola. Where did you get that answer from?
-Croline
happy.gif
 
M

Marykate Viola

Guest
Hi Caroline, i actually posted a question about children in the dining facilites on another thread so honestly i just guessed.
 

Joe Campbell

Member
Apr 4, 2011
26
0
31
I remember reading that a 17 year old Jack Thayer had to eat by himself in the first class dining room during dinner. I know children wasn't allowed to eat dinner in the first class dining room but what about breakfast and lunch!!??