Ajmal Dar
Member
Does anyone have a diagram plotting the route taken by Titanic compared to the positions of ice reported by various other ships. This would be really useful to see.
Best regards,
Ajmal
Best regards,
Ajmal
Samuel Halpern
Member
Mike Spooner
Member
There are other diagrams showing the position of the other ships. What is very critical is the other ships have taken warning of the ice field and are sailing further south to avoid the ice field! One of those ships is the Titanic sister ship Olympic to! When you start to look into the pressure Smith has been under for the last 6-7 months of his life its one wonder Smith is making mistakes. Don't forget his boss is on board Mr B Ismay who is also under huge pressure as the Olympic at this stage is a finical disaster. Titanic is late on delivery and over spent on budget too? Titanic only 53% full of passengers. Ismay as a business man knows the crossing will be a lost making just adding to his problems! Just remember White Star Line is owned by Mr JP Morgan who is a very demanding man and his IMMC is in serious finical trouble. Hard headed business men do not listen to excuses!
Mike.
Mike.
I
Ioannis Georgiou
Member
What is the source for Olympic sailing south to avoid the ice field? She was even not close to it!
What pressure are you talking about? What has Ismay or JP Morgan to do with that? Olympic a financial disaster? What is the source for that?
Sounds more you took your information of conspiracy books/articles.
What pressure are you talking about? What has Ismay or JP Morgan to do with that? Olympic a financial disaster? What is the source for that?
Sounds more you took your information of conspiracy books/articles.
M
Mark Baber
Staff member
Moderator
Member
1. Morgan did not "own" IMM, although J. P. Morgan & Co. effectively controlled it through the mechanism of the Voting Trust. 2. IMM had a net profit of over $4.5 million in 1911. It was not at the time of Titanic's sinking in "serious financial trouble." Source: IMM 1911 annual report.
Mike Spooner
Member
I am afraid Mr JP Morgan did own IMMC and formed the company in his a tempt to dominant the North Atlantic shipping trade. Basically he paid too much for the shipping companies especial White Star Line. Even Mr B Ismay did not want to sell out but the share holders thought different as Morgan made an offer not to be turned down! Morgan turned IMMC into a shareholding company at $120 million dollars. $60 million ordinary or common shares and $60 million preference shares. The dividends pay out for ordinary shares set at 10% max and preference shares at 6% dividend. But you must remember if there is no profit that year it only accumulate until there is a profit. Morgan over values the shares for the company which only declined in value. In fact he was lumbered with a safe full of unsold share certificates. Were the profit confusion come from is the fact White Star Line with other shipping companies are making profits but not enough to pay off Morgan investment into IMMC. If you look at Morgan history this is quite a remarkable successful business man and what has under his control in America is amazing and astonishing. IMMC his is only major flop he will have to his astonishing career. IMMC is bankrupted by 1915.Certaintly the loss of Titanic did help matter but he was in finical trouble before the ship even hit the drawing board!
Mike.
Mike.
I
Ioannis Georgiou
Member
I am afraid your information is not quite right. White Star Line invest the money intself into the ship and also had to bear the loss which she easily survived. The role of JP Morgan was actually a small one.
M
Mark Baber
Staff member
Moderator
Member
Some of what you wrote is accurate, Mike, but some is not. What source material(s) are you using?
Mike Spooner
Member
When you are the owner of any company you are in the driver seat. Any financial decision with White Star Line is through the company boss. As JP Morgan has brought the White Star Line lock stock & barrel in October 1902. You want to read some the biographies books of Mr JP MORGAN. Like:The House of Morgan and Morgan by Jean Strouse books they all come to the same conclusion. Morgan has paid far too much for the shipping companies in forming IMMC. Remember Morgan is a banker and finance man. What known about the shipping world is not an awful lot! He realise on good sound finical advise. As he done in the past with his railroad, tractors & agricultural, electric and the most expensive companies the steel industrial. But this time he was not to get the best advise in forming IMMC. The man he relied on was Clement Griscom of American Line who is fighting is own battle in trying to get a foot hold in the North Atlantic shipping trade. As it is the European shipping companies that dominate the route. We can see changes happing in Europe too were at one time it was the British who had over 80% of the market. Britain faces fierce competition coming from France and Germany. Especial Germany. With two fast raising shipping companies Hamburg America Line and North Deutschland Lloyd. Its Mr Albert Ballin of Hamburg America is the smartest and shrewdest business man on the planet when coming to the shipping world. The deal Ballin struck with Morgan the profit shearing of the Germany shipping companies was a great deal for them but not for Morgan as lands up subsidising passenger fares. Not only that Morgan will in counting others in the shipping world who known a lot more than that he does when coming to the business end and drive hard bargains at Morgan expensive We can see frustration is boiling over here. As by 1890 the America has become the largest economy in the world, yet so little is been shipped with America shipping companies. Morgan is to run into a political battle with the British Government. The French & Germany Governments make very clear to Morgan that you are not to take over our shipping companies. The deal he struck with the British Government was not the best deal for a private commercial company. Morgan finds too he is to get no help from the America Government who never wanted him to spend so much out side of America. I have study books on Mr JP Morgan life background in detail. To put into a nut shell Morgan is just taking on far too much at the same time with the other business deals. With his age and health starting catch up with him. Remember he is in his mid sixty life expectation in those days you can always added another ten years on. No computers or calculators the quick thinking Morgan with numbers which was very good at is having to deal with younger tycoons who can think quicker that he can.
Morgan face other issues in America as the President William Mc Kinley the man who he paid his party to put there was assassinated and were President Theodore Roosevelt took over and did shear the same point of views. Were Roosevelt and Morgan would fall out quickly followed by nasty battles between the two of them. If that wasn't bad enough Morgan faced a five month coal strike in America which was to have a serious in pack on his railroad, steel and coal companies. We can see a chick in Morgan armoury with the Carnegie steel company. Were that canny Scotsman Andrew Carnegie pull off the deal of the century selling the worlds biggest steel company for a record price of $480 million. Still stands at a record price today of individual to so much for a company. Morgan never made any temp to beat the man down on price to! Which is not like Morgan at all as with so many other companies he never paid the going price. Todays value over $14 billon. It would take another seventy years to better that figure with corporation companies.
Morgan is the largest private banker in the world he also the central and federal bank of America and has control of America Governments gold reservoirs. Of the 112 corporations in America he is the finical adviser for 78 corporations on the board of Directors of 72 companies. But his success come at a price. He his a ruthless, cunning, deceiving ,heartless brutal business man. He has a chilling personal about him. 6ft 3in broad shoulder cold daggered starry eyes with a temper. Very intimidating. As describe when walking into a room it felt like a wind or Gail had blown in. He has awesome power over the America economy to the point of nearly spinning a spider web over the economy. I hope you are getting the flavour of this man and what you will have to put up with. Mr B Ismay position in the White Star Line changes to. As Morgan brought the company Ismay becomes an employee not a employer working for Morgan. All the profits White Star makes are under Morgan control what to with! One can clearly see with so many deals Morgan is involve with how can he think straight any more as a business man. Of all the big deals it is the IMMC takes the longest and most complicated. Morgan come close in backing out of the deal but as he had already starting spending money before forming IMMC and found it hard to walk away. He was in finical trouble from day one with IMMC. The fly in the oil was that Cunard Line not joining his combine. But worse still the British Government gave Cunard a very special loan of £2.6 million interest rate of only 2.75% over a twenty year period to build two new high speed luxury liners. Lusitania and Mauritania. Further more gave Cunard £150,000 per year maintenance cost for the two new super liners. With a further £70,000 per year Royal Mail contract. This is utter gift not to be turn down.
! The two new luxury liners the worlds biggest at the time were the state of art of new technology with steam turbines and modern steering gear. Captured the blue ribbon crossing record by second crossing and held on to it for 22 years. This are the ships that the passengers want to sail on. Taking sales away from White Star. When in business you must always look were the competition and threats are coming from. Clearly Morgan never saw this coming. Mr B Ismay in 1904 becomes the President of IMMC. The job he never wanted in the first place and was Morgan third choice. Morgan had a major shake up with the Directors of IMMC. Were Mr C Giscom was removed and blamed him for the finical mess. Morgan wanted Mr A Ballin of Hamburg America. But he turned down the job. Were poor old Ismay got lumbered with the job. To be a President you need to be out going personality. Ismay was not good at that and was a rather shy man due to his back ground of his overbearing dominating father. There is no doubt Ismay tried his hardest to turn the fortune of IMMC around but was impossible task. White Star with other lines were making a profits. But not enough to recover Morgan investments plan. How many times do I see Mr B Ismay is the owner of the Titanic? If he does not own the shipping company how can he be the owner? The true owner of TITANIC is Mr JP MORGAN.
He is the one who arranged the finical arrangement to build the two new ships Olympic and Titanic.
Mike.
Morgan face other issues in America as the President William Mc Kinley the man who he paid his party to put there was assassinated and were President Theodore Roosevelt took over and did shear the same point of views. Were Roosevelt and Morgan would fall out quickly followed by nasty battles between the two of them. If that wasn't bad enough Morgan faced a five month coal strike in America which was to have a serious in pack on his railroad, steel and coal companies. We can see a chick in Morgan armoury with the Carnegie steel company. Were that canny Scotsman Andrew Carnegie pull off the deal of the century selling the worlds biggest steel company for a record price of $480 million. Still stands at a record price today of individual to so much for a company. Morgan never made any temp to beat the man down on price to! Which is not like Morgan at all as with so many other companies he never paid the going price. Todays value over $14 billon. It would take another seventy years to better that figure with corporation companies.
Morgan is the largest private banker in the world he also the central and federal bank of America and has control of America Governments gold reservoirs. Of the 112 corporations in America he is the finical adviser for 78 corporations on the board of Directors of 72 companies. But his success come at a price. He his a ruthless, cunning, deceiving ,heartless brutal business man. He has a chilling personal about him. 6ft 3in broad shoulder cold daggered starry eyes with a temper. Very intimidating. As describe when walking into a room it felt like a wind or Gail had blown in. He has awesome power over the America economy to the point of nearly spinning a spider web over the economy. I hope you are getting the flavour of this man and what you will have to put up with. Mr B Ismay position in the White Star Line changes to. As Morgan brought the company Ismay becomes an employee not a employer working for Morgan. All the profits White Star makes are under Morgan control what to with! One can clearly see with so many deals Morgan is involve with how can he think straight any more as a business man. Of all the big deals it is the IMMC takes the longest and most complicated. Morgan come close in backing out of the deal but as he had already starting spending money before forming IMMC and found it hard to walk away. He was in finical trouble from day one with IMMC. The fly in the oil was that Cunard Line not joining his combine. But worse still the British Government gave Cunard a very special loan of £2.6 million interest rate of only 2.75% over a twenty year period to build two new high speed luxury liners. Lusitania and Mauritania. Further more gave Cunard £150,000 per year maintenance cost for the two new super liners. With a further £70,000 per year Royal Mail contract. This is utter gift not to be turn down.
! The two new luxury liners the worlds biggest at the time were the state of art of new technology with steam turbines and modern steering gear. Captured the blue ribbon crossing record by second crossing and held on to it for 22 years. This are the ships that the passengers want to sail on. Taking sales away from White Star. When in business you must always look were the competition and threats are coming from. Clearly Morgan never saw this coming. Mr B Ismay in 1904 becomes the President of IMMC. The job he never wanted in the first place and was Morgan third choice. Morgan had a major shake up with the Directors of IMMC. Were Mr C Giscom was removed and blamed him for the finical mess. Morgan wanted Mr A Ballin of Hamburg America. But he turned down the job. Were poor old Ismay got lumbered with the job. To be a President you need to be out going personality. Ismay was not good at that and was a rather shy man due to his back ground of his overbearing dominating father. There is no doubt Ismay tried his hardest to turn the fortune of IMMC around but was impossible task. White Star with other lines were making a profits. But not enough to recover Morgan investments plan. How many times do I see Mr B Ismay is the owner of the Titanic? If he does not own the shipping company how can he be the owner? The true owner of TITANIC is Mr JP MORGAN.
He is the one who arranged the finical arrangement to build the two new ships Olympic and Titanic.
Mike.
Michael H. Standart
Member
That's an awful lot of prose used to say nothing. As Ioannis and Mark pointed out, a lot of what you said was inaccurate.
That is why they asked you "What source material(s) are you using?"
That is why they asked you "What source material(s) are you using?"
Mike Spooner
Member
Hi there,
If you do like what I have said in my article please state what it is, as at the moment it sounds like you are moaning at nothing.
Mike.
If you do like what I have said in my article please state what it is, as at the moment it sounds like you are moaning at nothing.
Mike.
Michael H. Standart
Member
Evasive response. You were asked "What source material(s) are you using?"
Please be so kind as to answer the question.
Please be so kind as to answer the question.
Ajmal Dar
Member
I think Michael Standart is right in asking where is your source material for the many claims that you make.
Regards,
Ajmal
Regards,
Ajmal
Steven Christian
Member
Did Titanic crew or passengers report seeing any ice before the berg they struck? I don't remember. I did a quick search and didn't find anything. Its been a long time since I read the Inquiries. Guess I need to re-read them.
Ajmal Dar
Member
Dear Steven,
I have been reading both of the inquest testimonies from passengers and crew and I havecread a lot of testimonies and so far I have not read one that says they saw ice of any kind before Titanic hit the iceberg.
All the best,
Ajmal
I have been reading both of the inquest testimonies from passengers and crew and I havecread a lot of testimonies and so far I have not read one that says they saw ice of any kind before Titanic hit the iceberg.
All the best,
Ajmal
