Titanic's stern did not implode.

Jim Currie

Jim Currie

Senior Member
How could they have left off the words "air tight" in that sentence? :oops: As you and Darren C point out, if a compartment is NOT airtight, there could be no implosion because there could not be a differential between inside and outside pressures. The trapped air will simply compress with depth. I don't think there would be any visible air left down at 25,000psi. Like a can of soda (or pop as it is sometimes called) the gas will likely dissolve in the liquid never to be seen again.
I've seen this sort of thing before, Sam. It is normally the result of enthusiasm for a theme overtaking common sense and eucation. BTW , You may recall. I worked for BOC Industrial Gasses for a number of years and was trained at their Morden research facility.
 
Cam Houseman

Cam Houseman

Member
I've seen this sort of thing before, Sam. It is normally the result of enthusiasm for a theme overtaking common sense and education. BTW , You may recall. I worked for BOC Industrial Gasses for a number of years and was trained at their Modern research facility.
What about Samuel Hemming? (almost typed Sam's name out, haha)
Senator SMITH.
What did you do then?

Mr. HEMMING.
I went up under the forecastle head to see where the hissing noise came from.

Senator SMITH.
What did you find?

Mr. HEMMING.
Nothing.

Senator SMITH.
Go right along and tell what you did.

Mr. HEMMING.
I did not see anything. I opened the forepeak storeroom; me and the storekeeper went down as far as the top of the tank and found everything dry. I came up to ascertain where the hissing noise was still coming from. I found it was the air escaping out of the exhaust of the tank.
At that time the chief officer, Mr. Wilde, put his head around the hawse pipe and says: "What is that, Hemming?" I said: "The air is escaping from the forepeak tank. She is making water in the forepeak tank, but the storeroom is quite dry." He said, "All right," and went away.


That air would be the Air in the Stern after she went under. It would have nowhere to go, again, since it was blocked by water. or by Doors and Hallways

For example, James Cameron is 2001 found the Watertight Door closed. the Air would not be able to escape.
 
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Samuel Halpern

Samuel Halpern

Member
Perhaps this illustration will help. The tank on the left shows the situation before the tank was holed. The deep part is say 25 ft below the surface and the pressure on the outside of the tank is that of the sea 25 ft deep. The inside of the tank is vented to the outside air and is at outside air pressure.
The tank on the right was holed at the 25 ft depth point and will fill with water until the hole is covered. The air above the hole is trapped inside the tank except for a very narrow escape route up the vent pipe. The trapped air will compress until it reach reaches close to the 25 ft pressure level. Because of the vent, the trapped air will slowly escape and the tank will fill with water until the water reaches up the vent pipe to the level of the sea surface. There would be no implosion.
1602534339486
 
Cam Houseman

Cam Houseman

Member
Perhaps this illustration will help. The tank on the left shows the situation before the tank was holed. The deep part is say 25 ft below the surface and the pressure on the outside of the tank is that of the sea 25 ft deep. The inside of the tank is vented to the outside air and is at outside air pressure.
The tank on the right was holed at the 25 ft depth point and will fill with water until the hole is covered. The air above the hole is trapped inside the tank except for a very narrow escape route up the vent pipe. The trapped air will compress until it reach reaches close to the 25 ft pressure level. Because of the vent, the trapped air will slowly escape and the tank will fill with water until the water reaches up the vent pipe to the level of the sea surface. There would be no implosion.
View attachment 50219
The Stern gave the air no chance to escape. It was going too fast.
excellent illustration
 
Mike Bull2019

Mike Bull2019

Member
The Stern gave the air no chance to escape. It was going too fast.
You don't KNOW this. You're speaking in absolutes.
When the Stern imploded, it did collapse inwards,
...and again- you don't KNOW that the stern imploded
For example, James Cameron is 2001 found the Watertight Door closed. the Air would not be able to escape.
Which watertight door, exactly? There was more than one!
 
Cam Houseman

Cam Houseman

Member
You don't KNOW this. You're speaking in absolutes.

...and again- you don't KNOW that the stern imploded

Which watertight door, exactly? There was more than one!
I was referring to the Turbine Room
When I get out of my classes, I'll upload the picture I drew.
 
Samuel Halpern

Samuel Halpern

Member
Which watertight door, exactly? There was more than one!
Cam, the watertight doors had nothing to do with this issue. Every so called watertight compartment had an escape ladder leading to the deck above which the watertight bulkheads were carried. In the stern thatw ould be D deck. Those were for any person to use so they would not be trapped in any compartment should the WTDs be closed. The compartments were NOT watertight, let alone air tight, in the vertical direction.

As far as the stern giving no chance for air to escape, it really doesn't matter. As long as there were no sealed compartments or tanks, the internal pressure in the compartment or tank would equalize with the external pressure of the water as it sinks is pulled lower and lower, air escaping or no air escaping. An implosion can only occur if you have some sealed container that is pulled down so there develops a large enough pressure differential between outside and inside pressure, then and only then can an implosion take place. But if there are any openings for air or water to get in or out, then the inside pressure will equalize with the outside pressure and there would be no implosion. (See below.)
Tank on the left has open vent pipe. Tank in the middle has a closed vent. Tank on right is completely sealed.
1602613577966
 
Cam Houseman

Cam Houseman

Member
Cam, the watertight doors had nothing to do with this issue. Every so called watertight compartment had an escape ladder leading to the deck above which the watertight bulkheads were carried. In the stern thatw ould be D deck. Those were for any person to use so they would not be trapped in any compartment should the WTDs be closed. The compartments were NOT watertight, let alone air tight, in the vertical direction.

As far as the stern giving no chance for air to escape, it really doesn't matter. As long as there were no sealed compartments or tanks, the internal pressure in the compartment or tank would equalize with the external pressure of the water as it sinks is pulled lower and lower, air escaping or no air escaping. An implosion can only occur if you have some sealed container that is pulled down so there develops a large enough pressure differential between outside and inside pressure, then and only then can an implosion take place. But if there are any openings for air or water to get in or out, then the inside pressure will equalize with the outside pressure and there would be no implosion.
View attachment 65409


The air, deep within the ship, was blocked by doors, hallways, and rooms. Places like the Second Class Dining Saloon, on D-Deck, was large and open, which would implode. perhaps it was the Galley.
The water would surround those blockages, and that would add to the pressure.
 
Samuel Halpern

Samuel Halpern

Member
The air, deep within the ship, was blocked by doors, hallways, and rooms. Places like the Second Class Dining Saloon, on D-Deck, was large and open, which would implode. perhaps it was the Galley.
The water would surround those blockages, and that would add to the pressure.
Those are not strong, sealed blockages. Doors and other such blockages would not survive even a relatively light pressure differential. These non-sealed areas would have equalized their internal pressure with the outside pressure fairly rapidly. There would be no implosion of the hull. I still have the feeling that you do not understand the hydrostatics here.

Where is there any hard evidence of an implosion or implosions taking place? Trapped air in a space will simply compresses.
 
Cam Houseman

Cam Houseman

Member
Those are not strong, sealed blockages. Doors and other such blockages would not survive even a relatively light pressure differential. These non-sealed areas would have equalized their internal pressure with the outside pressure fairly rapidly. There would be no implosion of the hull. I still have the feeling that you do not understand the hydrostatics here.

Where is there any hard evidence of an implosion or implosions taking place? Trapped air in a space will simply compresses.
Give me an hour, I'll have the picture I'm drawing done, and enough video evidence.
 
Cam Houseman

Cam Houseman

Member
Cam, as Darren C put it:
"An underwater implosion occurs when a structure designed to withstand water pressure (ie: a pressure vessel) catastrophically fails." There was no such structures that I'm aware of on Titanic.
Titanic wasn't designed to sink and guess what happened.
 
C

Chung Rex

Member
If the ship did not implode, where did the air go? Air cannot simply vanish and be replaced with water.
Maybe it is related to timescale problem? It can be viewed that compressing of air inside stern and (trying to equalize) the pressure inside and outside the hull are both transient problem. If the compression is not fast enough (timescale too long due to various reasons) to equalize the rising pressure difference, then perhaps implosion may occur when the structure can no longer withstand.
 
Cam Houseman

Cam Houseman

Member
Maybe it is related to timescale problem? It can be viewed that compressing of air inside stern and (trying to equalize) the pressure inside and outside the hull are both transient problem. If the compression is not fast enough (timescale too long due to various reasons) to equalize the rising pressure difference, then perhaps implosion may occur when the structure can no longer withstand.
yes!
 
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