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Jim Currie

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Apr 16, 2008
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Jim, I stand by with what I wrote in post #1948. So please don’t use my name in a way to confirm your own preexisting biased beliefs or hypotheses.

I’ve already enlighten at length that Mate Murdoch made everything possible to limit the damage. That he was not foolish enough to keep the rudder Hard-Left, if he ever gave that counter natural wheel order. «Going with what Hichens mentioned aboard Carpathia the engine orders (stop) & closing of the WTDs were given after the "Hard-a-port" (which was given during the crash) order». Therefore, to avoid unjustifiable and extensive iceberg pressure all along the starboard side, the rudder must have been ordered Hard-Right. Thence, Titanic initiated a turning momentum to Starboard (clockwise), when the berg was located in the area of BR No.4 where the pressure was relieved, until steadied by the master close by her previous westerly course, possibly on a North-West heading but most doubtfully on a South of West one.

Here are some more explanations of the peripatetic pivoting point that could help you to understand the principles;

  • Don’t waste your time with explanations; people only hear what they want to hear.
  • For those who understand, no explanation is needed. For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible
  • To him who has had the experience no explanation is necessary, to him who has not, none is possible.
  • If you can't understand it without an explanation, you can't understand it with an explanation.
  • Do not ask for an explanation if you do not intend to believe it.

As for; «In fact, what would happen to the stern if the starboard shoulder made contact with a knuckle as she moved ahead along the quay?» ... I can’t wait for your usual preexisting beliefs and hypotheses to elucidate the matter.

Have a good day Jim! :)
Georges, I suggest you read the evidence properly.

Murdoch did not order a counteraction helm order as part of the berg avoidance system, that was his intention but he did not have time to instigate that order before the ship made contact.

"I put her hard astarboard and run the engines full astern, but it was too close; she hit it...I intended to port around it, but she hit before I could do any more."

Helmsman QM Hitchens was specifically asked if he was given a second helm order. He said he only receive the hard-a-starboard order.

"Just as she struck I had the order "Hard-a-starboard" when she struck.
1315. Was that the only order you had as to the helm? A: - Yes."


QM Olliver who witnessed the second helm order said it was given after the berg was astern.

What I know about the wheel - I was stand-by to run messages, but what I knew about the helm is, hard aport.
I know the orders I heard
when I was on the bridge was after we had struck the iceberg. I heard hard aport, and there was the man at the wheel and the officer. The officer was seeing it was carried out right...The iceberg was away up stern...That is when the order "hard aport" was given; yes, sir."

I do not need a lecture from you on anything nautical, Georges.including, but not limited to, the behavior of the pivot point within the hull relative to the vessel's bow and stern. Nor do I need big words like peripatetic. I suggest that you reserve that splendid description for those you wish to impress.

What I do know, and you have confirmed is that the iceberg became the fulcrum around which the ship pivoted and the pivot point within the ship disappeared until contact was broken at a point about 270 aft of the stem bar.
I suggest you go back to your earlier posts and re-read them. After that, have a think about the following:
1. How was it possible for the rudder to be effective in the maelstrom around the stern aperture that you described?
2. Why was the berg 50 odd feet out from the side of the ship as it passed midship?
3. Why was the berg less than 10 feet from the stern as it passed it?

Over.
 
A

Aaron_2016

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Georges, I suggest you read the evidence properly.

Murdoch did not order a counteraction helm order as part of the berg avoidance system, that was his intention but he did not have time to instigate that order before the ship made contact........

The problem I have with Hichens' testimony is that he said the order "hard a-starboard" was given after Moody answered the telephone, but Fleet told Major Peuchen that nobody answered the phone. Lookout Lee was kept out of the US Inquiry and "detained" in New York. Was he prepared to contradict Fleet's official testimony, especially if questioned separately. The second problem is the stand-by quartermaster was not on the bridge during the collision, but Hichen's testified in America that the order was given when he was present:

"The sixth officer standing by me to see the duty carried out and the quartermaster standing by my left side repeated the order, "Hard astarboard. The helm is hard over, sir."

That never happened because QM Olliver was the stand-by quartermaster and he testified that he never heard that order given. He was oddly kept out of the UK Inquiry. Perhaps they felt his evidence was too damning for the company i.e. If pressed further on the subject Olliver may have said the order was not given which would discredit Hichens' version, and Olliver would also have repeated what he said in America i.e. That he witnessed the captain telegraph half speed ahead after the collision. Why make a case for negligence so easy. Better to keep him out altogether.

We can see what Hichens' really did in his detailed account to a news reporter shortly after the Carpathia reached New York. He gave a lengthy description which matches practically word for word what he told the Inquiry. The most noteworthy thing however is that he makes no mention at all about turning the wheel to avoid the iceberg. One begs to know the reason why.


Extract from Hichens' original account before the Inquiry began. Ignore the trivial spelling mistakes, but notice he makes no mention of turning the wheel.



hichens1.png


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Rob Lawes

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The problem with these testimonies is how many contradict each other, even from the same person.

Aaron, you use this as evidence that Hichens did not receive a wheel order and yet it contradicts an earlier point you made that Fleet did not get an answer to his urgent call to the bridge.

The article implies Smith was in the chartroom at the rear of the wheelhouse when he came out of the navigation room at the fore end of his cabin.

Also, as we know, in the enclosed wheelhouse Hichens would have absolutely no idea where Murdoch's hand was in relation to the telegraphs.
 

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