Two men under the lifeboat seats Yates


Status
Not open for further replies.
Dec 13, 1998
295
3
263
Hello, Bob. Quite a few of those in No. 11 also had to climb through a 'window,' or at least something rather similar to it, from deck A. This would also apply to some of those who left in boats 13 and 15 and perhaps No 9. as well.
I am not saying Mrs. Chaffee was not in boat 4, but her statements may well indicate one of the starboard aft boats as well...

Peter
 
Jun 12, 2004
2,131
13
233
>>That she doesn't mention anyone being picked up from the sea or being in the same boat as Mrs. Astor (quite a few women said that)<<

Peter, just one thing to say: Just because it wasn't mentioned doesn't mean it wasn't true. Now, if she said that it hadn't happened, then I'd say we have a contradictive mystery and thus a puzzle. Did she have to elaborate on these two items in order for her to have been in LB #4? As Bob said, it's possible that she wasn't close to Mrs. Astor and therefore couldn't see her (at the other end of the boat?).

As for smokers, face it, Peter--every boat (or probably most) no doubt had smokers in it. As Bob said, the ship was bloody sinking. Hell, I probably would have been smoking and I haven't smoked a cigarette in two years. This is the kind of event that would more than likely get me started back up again. Smoking/smokers was/were not exclusive to the starboard boats, so what makes you think that there were no smokers in LB #4?

"That there were two men 'under the seats' smoking - this never happened in boat 4."

How do you know this? Were there any other survivors who testified to there having been no smokers in the boat? Who? How many?

LB #4 was crammed to the hilt, especially after the transference from not one but two boats. It was the proverbial 'Grand Central Station' and a very popular boat that night. Although LB #4 had the capacity for 65, it wouldn't have been surprising to find a few people decked out on the floor.

Unless I receive confirmation of the opposite, omissions are evidence of nothing!

Take care
 
Jun 12, 2004
2,131
13
233
>>Quite a few of those in No. 11 also had to climb through a 'window,' or at least something rather similar to it, from deck A. This would also apply to some of those who left in boats 13 and 15 and perhaps No 9. as well.<<

Where did you get this information? It's been a while since I've read the transcripts, and I've only read bits and pieces (rereading it right now), so I have no recollection of having read anything about this. Care to enlighten me? If possible, could you give me page numbers from the Inquiries' transcripts as to where I may find the information for myself? Thanks.

Take care
 

Bob Godfrey

Member
Nov 22, 2002
6,043
107
333
UK
Mark, there are too many accounts of the starboard aft boats being loaded partly from A deck to list them all - best check the Inquiry witness lists for the testimony of any crew member who was in one of those boats. But did Mrs Chaffee specifically mention the glass-enclosed section of the deck, as Ben has inferred. Can anybody (Ben?) confirm exactly what she was reported to have said in that Minnesota paper?

There certainly were people sitting on the floor of boat 4, in several inches of water. Emily Richards was one. She mentioned that several of the women were restrained from standing up by the men at the oars who, having their hands full, used their feet. More to the point, Emily further stated that two of the men pulled into the boat from the water were less than rational and had again to be restrained from standing and disturbing the balance of the boat: "The other men had to sit upon them to hold them down". Literally perhaps, but since the men fit enough to do any restraining were likely to be busy rowing I think it's at least possible that these two were kept out of harm's way by being pushed under the seats and trapped there by the rowers' legs.
.
 
Dec 13, 1998
295
3
263
Hello again! What I mean is that
a) the starboard aft boats, 11, 13 and 15 were fuller than No. 4 notwithstanding transfers and as Bob says, there are several accounts of survivors being loaded from A deck. I just want to make sure that Mrs. Chaffee actually said that she entered her lifeboat via the glass enclosed promenade deck - in that case, the 'problem' is solved!
As for boat No. 4 - I have never come across an interview where anybody stated there were stowaways hiding under the seats!

Best regards,

Peter
 

Bob Godfrey

Member
Nov 22, 2002
6,043
107
333
UK
I think we got a bit sidetracked earlier in this thread with talk of stowaways. One of my points is that people who ended up underneath seats were not necessarily hiding. This thread started with the statement attributed to Mrs Chaffee that "Two men were discovered smoking cigarettes under the seats", and Arne was wondering who they might have been. But did Mrs C describe these men as 'stowaways'? If not, I am suggesting that we could take her meaning as "two men were discovered to be smoking cigarettes under the seats". And if she was indeed talking about boat 4, likely candidates would include the rescued swimmers. Specifically those two who were perceived as "mad with exposure" (by Emily Richards) and alternatively, but probably the same two, as "drunk and gave us much trouble all the time" (by Marion Thayer). To put names in the frame, my guess would be Dillon and Prentice. But I'm just playing the game of speculation! :-}
.
 

Arne Mjåland

Member
Oct 21, 2001
213
0
181
According to Kyrila Scully s book Mrs. Chaffee was in lifeboat 4. According to George Behe s article in The Titanic Commutator about Jay Yates winter 1982 Mrs Silvey also discovered a man lying under the seats. She met him later on the Carpathia, and she thought he was a gambler.George refers to an article in Duluth News Tribune May 2 1912) I will try to find the article in Fargo Forum and see if there are more details.
 
Dec 13, 1998
295
3
263
Hello Arne, the three gamblers were all in starboard boats - Romaine said he entered 'one of the first', Brereton may have been with him or with Homer in No. 15. Mrs. Silvey was almost certainly in No. 11.

Best regards,

Peter
 

Ben Holme

Member
Feb 11, 2001
714
6
183
On reflection, the Chaffee account to which I referred may well have originated in Duluth, perhaps even the News Tribune. Herbert Fuller Chaffee was prominent in Duluth and was almost certainly acquainted with the Silveys, who were residents of that city. There is ample evidence to suggest that representatives of both families arrived together at the Hotel Gotham in New York, to await news as to the fate of their loved ones.

There is little evidence, however, to suggest that Mmes. Silvey and Chaffee escaped in the same lifeboat. Peter - just out of interest, how strong is the evidence to the effect that Alice Silvey escaped in boat #11?

From my dim recollections, the article did not mention any "glass" per se, merely the precarious nature of stepping through a window into a boat.

Best wishes,
Ben
 
Dec 13, 1998
295
3
263
Hello again, Ben. According to what I have been told, Mrs. Silvey recognized the Allison baby in the boat with her, but I have not seen that account by her, so I can only rely on what I have been told. Perhaps you have seen some sort of account by her? Other than the short passage where she stated she stepped on some man whom she thought was a gambler, of course...

Best regards,

Peter
 

Kyrila Scully

Member
Apr 15, 2001
2,079
35
243
South Florida
Well, I wouldn't take my book as the final word. I wrote my information based on the best research available at the time, but we all know new information can arise to counter what has been believed as fact all these years. I will always capitulate to new and valid information.

Kyrila
 
C

Christina Rindt

Guest
Bravo! I really like what you said there Kyrila. Very well put. What an incentive to follow your example.

Christina

Now, bring me those new books!
 

Ben Holme

Member
Feb 11, 2001
714
6
183
Hello Peter,

I'm be fascinated to know your source for the recognition of Trevor Allison by Alice Silvey. I've never learned of any acquaintance between the two families, but they may have got to know eachother on board, or else Mrs. Silvey learned of the baby's indentity subsequently, and recalled his tiny presence in her lifeboat.

Unfortunately, Mrs. Silvey is one of a handful of first class women whose account I've never read. Others examples include Mrs. Pears and Mrs. Rothschild.

Hope this finds you well,

Ben
 
Dec 13, 1998
295
3
263
Hello, Ben. I am quite well, thank you. I would like to think that you're well too!
As for Mrs Silvey - the information I have got comes from America. There was a short interview published in 'Fate Deals a Hand' in the Titanic Commutator in 1982 (1983?) where she described stepping on some man allegedly hiding under the seat and she thought this man might have been a gambler. I have another question for you; what exactly did Mrs Chaffee say about her escape? I have never seen anything by her save the excerpt Arne presented above.

Best regards,

Peter
 

Arne Mjåland

Member
Oct 21, 2001
213
0
181
Here is something Mrs Chaffee told in the newspaper article in Fargo Forum April 23 1912:
Mrs Chaffee s story of wreck:
Mrs Chaffee said that her last moment with her husband was when he pushed her through the narrow space between the rail and boat, telling that it was al right, that she would be rowed back to him in a few minutes.
No system in filling booats.
"On Sunday there had been a drill scheduled for the crew, but is was called off. For some time there was talk on deck and much running about. Then the boats began to drop." (then the story about overmanned boats which I told before).
"As we pulled steadily away, for the first time I understood the low purring sound. It was the water rushing into the Titanic s sides, and my heart seemed to stop. I began then to feel a horrible fear, and tried to make out Mr. Chaffe among the dark shadows against the rails."
Not much, I am afraid, but probably better than nothing. It does not probably throw any lights on the question about which boat Mrs Chaffee was in.
Also in the newspaper article there was the news that Mrs, Chaffee had become a grandmother around April 23 1912. A son had been born to Mr. and Mrs. E.W. Chaffee in St Paul, Winconsin.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

Similar threads