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Unknown animals aboard Titanic

Discussion in 'Animals on the Titanic' started by Rolf Vonk, Jan 2, 2001.

  1. Rolf Vonk

    Rolf Vonk Guest

    Hi,

    I've read about the fact that Miss Young had some very expensive chickens with her on Titanic. We allready had a large discussion about the dogs aboard, but not about the other animals. So I like to know if there were other animals aboard Titanic and if it was possible that there were also second and third class passengers with animals (for example when a family emigrates, I think they would take their dog with them). ET doesn't give information about that.

    I hope you can help me.

    BTW, does somebody know what happened to the little chickens??

    Greetings Rollie happy.gif
     
  2. The only critters to make it into the lifeboats were some very small dogs. If there were chickens aboard, they're still there.

    Cordially,
    Michael H. Standart
     
  3. Jim Kalafus

    Jim Kalafus Member

    Rollie: In Violet Jessop's book, didn't she claim that the ship's cat had a litter of kittens on, or just before, the voyage? My gut feeling was that the story was fictional, but you never know. Like the chickens Mr Standart mentioned, if they WERE on board, they probably still are. Jim
     
  4. George Behe

    George Behe Guest

    Hi, James!

    Somewhere around here I have a newspaper interview with someone who knew a crewman who had ferried the Titanic from Belfast to Southampton. The crewman said that the cat left the ship at Southampton (carrying her kittens ashore) and that some of his mates had interpreted the cat's desertion as a bad sign.

    All my best,

    George
     
  5. Rolf Vonk

    Rolf Vonk Guest

    Hi there,

    It seems that the cat didn't trust Titanic! How terrible for the little chickens that they had to stay aboard. Were they kept in the cargo hold or somewhere near the kitchens like the dogkennels (though this may not be the wright place to keep chickens. Fresh meat and a cook..)?!?
    I don't know if the Titanic had a kind of accomodation for other animals than dogs, because I know that there were other ships who were fitted for extra animals aboard.

    Is there no information about animals in second and/or third class?

    P.S. I've read that there were some birds aboard Titanic during the cross channel voyage. To whom did they belong?

    Greetings Rollie happy.gif
     
  6. Hi, Rollie: happy.gif

    Not a true animal story here, but close enough. I alway thought it was funny that the 1912 Logan Marshall book "Sinking of the Titanic and Great Sea Disasters" (published under various titles and authors) stated that there was a PIG on board:
    [hr]
    [hr]​
    The account was attributed to "a woman on the Carpathia". Unfortunately, the only such porker aboard Titanic, as far as I know, was stuffed! -- Edith Russell's "lucky" musical pig. wink.gif

    The book is full of inaccuracies, but it's an interesting read nonetheless. This excerpt is from the University of Virginia's excellent etext version:

    http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/etcbin/browse-mixed-new?id=MarSink&images=
    images/modeng&data=/texts/english/modeng/parsed&tag=public

    (Paste the two lines together for the full address.)

    Grüss!
     
  7. Jim Kalafus

    Jim Kalafus Member

    Mr Behe: Let me say up front that your Lost at Sea is probably the best of the psychic research books out there! I'll admit, I went into it with the "oh, well, ANOTHER one" attitude and was REALLY impressed with your research and presentation! The Waratah section was worthy of separate publication, so well did it lay out the evidence! Now, about that nervous cat: didn't she later find work aboard the Empress Of Ireland? Along with "Lucky Tower?"
     
  8. Inger Sheil

    Inger Sheil Member

    George -

    Would the cat story be the one concerning Joe Mulholland, whose tale appears in the Sunday Independent for April 15, 1962 (source: Senan Molony, 'The Irish Aboard Titanic' pp. 231-232)? An interesting interview, particularly the sections where Mulholland recounts Thomas Andrews' strong views on the anti-Catholic slogans scrawled in the Titanic's engine room. I've often wondered how Andrews would have reacted to the Catholic expulsions from Harland & Wolff later that year, given his antipathy for the sectarian slogans he called 'disgusting'.

    Inger
     
  9. George Behe

    George Behe Guest

    Hi, Inger!

    It sounds like the same article (although Senan's book had nothing to do with my own awareness of the article.)

    All my best,

    George
     
  10. Inger Sheil

    Inger Sheil Member

    :) I'd heard references to it before as well, although Sen's book was the first time I'd seen it reprinted in its entirety as an easily accesible source for a layperson such as myself. I seem to remember that someone (a BTS member in the ADB? Not sure...) even wrote a poem based on it once.

    Regards,

    Inger
     
  11. George Behe

    George Behe Guest

    Hi, Inger!

    Yes, Marty Crisp (the poem's author) also has a young person's Titanic novel coming out; it's called "White Star" and will be centered around the dogs that sailed on the Titanic and a boy who befriended one of them. I think most folks here will enjoy reading it.

    All my best,

    George
     
  12. George Behe

    George Behe Guest

    Hi, James!

    Wow! That's the nicest thing anyone has ever said to me about "Lost At Sea." Thank you very much for your kind words -- I'm glad you enjoyed it and that you found it worthwhile. (My co-author Mick Goss will be pleased to hear your comments, too.) :)

    Take care, old chap.

    All my best,

    George
     
  13. Rolf Vonk

    Rolf Vonk Guest

    Hi folks,

    I'm so mad about the fact that most of your really great in english written Titanic books aren't available in Dutch. I can read them in English, but you must know that I sometimes have difficulties with translating (even when I'm discussing with you on this nice ET side). I'm a kind of advocate to make Titanic international, like it was in present days. Since I've "learned" English I was able to get more and more Titanic information.

    So now I was curious about all those poor animals aboard (Don't be affraid I'm an advocate of international animal rights too, though I love my little rabbit who is always dangerous to unknown visitors of our "estate"!).

    Well, back to the animals aboard Titanic. Jim, you're right about the pig Miss Russell brought with her. I've heard about the story. Forgive me when I'm asking a stupid question, but I don't know if the pig was a real one or a toy pig?

    BTW, is there nobody who can answer to my question about animals in third and second class??

    Looking forward to your responses.

    Greetings Rollie happy.gif
     
  14. Rolf Vonk

    Rolf Vonk Guest

    Oeps, Excuse me that I said Jim instead of John when I asked about the pig-story. It looks all the same! (Dutch translation error?!?!?).

    greetings rollie happy.gif
     
  15. Jim Kalafus

    Jim Kalafus Member

    Mr. Behe: My pleasure! Any book on psychic phenonemon that takes a rational well researched approach is welcome. Having read through so MANY Frank Edwards-eque reworkings of the Palatine/ Waratah/ Flying Dutchman stories it was GREAT to finally read something with substance. One of those rare paranormal books I wasn't embarrassed to be seen reading.

    ROLLIE: The pig was a toy, in fact, a music box. It makes a cameo in "A Night To Remember." Supposedly survivor Lawrence Beesley was to have cameoed as well, but the union wouldn't allow it.

    EVERYONE: I ended the initial posting prematurely. My Empress of Ireland Cat reference was to a similar story which appears in "14 Minutes." I didn't want it to seems as though I was making a cryptic wise-a....remark at Mr. Behe.
     
  16. Hi, Rollie: James already pretty much covered this. The pig was indeed a little "stuffed toy" animal which played "The Maxixe"(?) when its tail was turned. Edith carried it for "good luck", but from reading her ET bio, it doesn't look like she had much. (Though she did live to a ripe old age of 98!)

    Her Cincinnati Enquire obituary (available here on ET) quoted her as follows:
    [hr]
    [hr]​
    Her lucky toy pig ultimately became the property of Walter Lord, and is still in his possession, as far as I know. In fact, I believe there's a picture of it in the Illustrated Edition of "A Night to Remember".

    Oh, speaking of translation errors, I hope "Grüss!" means the same thing in Dutch that it does in German! (I signed off without double-checking, so don't feel bad about that "Jim" thing. Sorry.)

    James: What an incredible shame about Beesley! It would have been fabulous to be able to catch the man in the film! ("Durn union -- Grrrr!")

    Cheers!
     
  17. Rolf Vonk

    Rolf Vonk Guest

    Hi dear people,

    James and John: Thanks for the information about that toy piggy. I think it was really a lucky toy pig, when it survived Titanic and maybe other disasters.

    Yes John, Grüss means the same in Dutch as in German, but we say "groeten". Though in my part of the country everyone says "Houdoe" wich means the same. It sounds like "How do" in English. It's funny that when I say "Houdoe" in Holland (I'm from Brabant in the southern part of the country) they don't understand me and are thinking that I'm from Belgium or even England!! Well, I must confess that our dialect is a kind of mix between Belgian and German, but English?!?

    Time to go back to the animals aboard. I shall make a list as good as a can. Please react when I'm false:

    - 9 (maybe 10) dogs: 1 airedale (astor), 1 airdale (carter), 1 king charles spaniel (carter), 1 pekinees (harper), 1 chowchow (anderson), 1 French Bulldog (daniel), 1 pomeranian (hays), 1 unknown (Bishop), 1 unknown (Rothschild). The 10th dog could be the one from Captain Smith (but I don't know if he had it with him aboard).

    - a unknown number of poultry from Miss Young

    - a cat with little cats who disembarked in Southampton after she had gone aboard in Belfast.

    - a cage with birds (only during the cross channel voyage).

    - a toy pig from miss Russell.

    Well, is there someone who can add or delete things to/from this list? I would like to hear it!

    Still no information about eventually animals in second or third class?

    I hope to get your responses soon!

    Much greetings Rollie happy.gif
     
  18. Joseph

    Joseph Member

    Hi Rolf:

    There were only 12 dogs known documented dogs onboard the Titanic.

    1.- “Sun Yat-Sen”, male Pekinese (survived). Belong to Mr. Harper.
    2.- “Lady”, female Pomeranian, (survived). Belonged to Margaret Hays.
    3.- A male Pomeranian, name unknown (survived). Belonged to Mrs. Elizabeth Rothschild (There are two versions how this dog died, both stories are second hand, Elizabeth's relatives said many years later that the dog was killed one week later by a larger dog after they got to New York, and according to the other sotty told by the niece of Elizabeth's seamtress she had overheard Elizabeth tell her aunt that the dog jumped from her arms when the disembarked the Carpathia and was killed under the wheels of a carriage.)
    4.- “Frou Frou”, female, breed unknown (possibly a Bolognese) was locked in Cabin. Belonged to Mrs. Dickinson Bishop, who boungt it in Florence for his wife while in their honemoon.
    5.- “Kitty”, female Airedale Terrier. Belonged to John J. Astor and was his favorite pet.
    6.- “Gamin de Pycombe”, male French bulldog. Belonged to Robert Daniel who put a claim of $750 dollars for the loss of his pet.
    7.- A dog, name and sex unknown (possibly another Airedale terrier). Belonged also to John Jacob Astor according to Nella Goldenberg.
    8.- A Chow Chow, name and sex unknown. Belonged to Mr. Harry Anderson, who put a claim for $50 dollars for his lost pet.
    9.- A King Charles Cavalier, name and sex unknown. Belonged to Mr. William Carter, who put a claim for two lost dogs valued $200 and $100.
    10.- An old male dog, name unknown. Belonged also to Mr Carter. On a French website it is identified as an old male Airedale.
    11.- A Great Dane, name and sex unknown. Presumed to belong to Miss Ann Isham, 50 year old spinster, one of the 4 first class women who died in the sinking.
    12.- An unknown breed, name and sex unknown. Belonged to Mr. William C. Dulles, both died but his body was recovered and identified. There is an unverified report about a man carrying a Pomeranian, who leaped overboard with it, struck a piece of wreckage and was badly stunned. He was pulled aboard a lifeboat but not the dog. Whether this refers to this last dog on the list will never be known.

    There are two photos of pets on Titanic which can be seen on Internet, one has some sort of Terrier, a Bulldog and a Great Dane. The other shows an old man (possibly Mr. Rothschild) talking to a Pekinese, a younger steward carrying a small white dog (possibly Frou Frou who appears to be a Bolognese) and also holding what appears to be a Belgian Malinois, very closely related to the German Shepperd breed; and another older steward holding an Airedale, possibly Astor's Kitty and another Airedale Terrier tied to a window bar. The picture is rather dark so it is difficult to tell with certainty. This raises the question as to who could have owned this dog, and it can only be the other Astor dog, the other Carter dog or the Dulles dog.

    The unknown poultry presumed to belong to Miss Grice where actually 2 roosters and 2 hens bought from Chasse Ile Rage, Jardin d’Agriculture and claimed by Mrs. John Stuart White, who was the cabin companion of Miss Grice, and it was her not Miss Grice who put a claim for $250.87 for her lost live poultry. Two second class passenger survivors, Miss Ellen "Nellie" Hocking and Miss Edwina C. Troutt, confirmed that the previous night of the disaster, they had heard a cock crowing, an ancient sign in Cornish folklore of impending disaster and a harbinger of bad luck and also a third class passenger survivor, Miss Ellen Mary Mockler, who later became a nun, particularly remembered that while she was heading up to the Boat Deck she "heard chickens and hens" that had escaped and began running around on the Boat Deck but it is higly doubtful that it could have been live poultry kept for the kitchen as Titanic was well equipped with refrigeration to store the large provisions it carried.

    The cat Jenny had 4 kittens as mentioned in Violet Jessop's Memoirs and she took her kittens off the ship one by one when it got in Southampton as reported in the Irish News Global Edition but i have not been able to verify this story.

    The canary in a cage never went down with the Titanic, it was carried by Chief Purser Hugh McElroy from Southampton to Cherbourg and recovered after the ship docked in France on April 10th, by the owner who had paid 15 shillings for the fare.

    No live pig on Titanic, just the toy box that belonged to Miss Edith Rosenbaum "Russell", during the night she entertained the 5 children on lifeboat 11 with it. There is no picture of it on illustrated book A Night to Remember by Walter Lord which I have.

    No Newfoundland dog name Rigel. This is a fabricated story bought by a reporter from someone who said was Jonas Brigg, a Carpathia crewman, which was published by The New York Herald on April 21, 1912. Documented evidence shows that Murdoch's widow Ada, said that her husband did not own a dog, no passager of crew survivor ever confirmed this story and lastly no record exists of anyone named Briggs listed as a crew member on the Carpathia.

    As far as your quetions if there where any other pets with second or third class passengers suffice to say that the fare for the dogs on Titanic was the same amount paid for a child, which means that it is highly unlikely that any pets were brought onboard by any of them. Besides, third class passengers were under stringent US Immigration law which is the reason they had to be kept secluded from the other passengers because Titanic was an alien immigrant carrier.

    But the saddest fact is that even if more boats would have been on Titanic it would not have made any difference at all as they hardly had time to lower the 14 boats and 2 cutters they carried as the collapsible boats were the last on the ship: A was washed off by a wave but 14 people were saved in it; B was the worse off but 30 people managed to survive standing on the hull among them was Colonel Archibald Gracie who wrote a book aboit his experience; C was commandeered by Ismay and had the most people with 43 survivors and lastly D with 21 survivors among which were the two kidnapped French boys.


    Hope this answers the questions you had.

    Sincerely

    Joseph
     
  19. I only knew of 10 dogs, there seemed to be 2 dogs too much on your list.

    Nos. 5. & 7. are the same dog. The Astors were having only one dog with them.
    No. 12, never came across it that he had a dog with him. Regarding No. 11 it is a theory.


    There are no known photos taken of the dogs on board Titanic. There is an image which is claimed to have been taken on board Titanic showing the dogs and kennels on deck which you can find on Internet, but that image is NOT Titanic.

    Regards
    Ioannis