Using the elevators during the sinking

[Jim Kalafus]

>Bestic account. He was going to help unload mail for the next days arrival in Liverpool.

Baggage:

Bestic had his lunch at 1 o'clock. Soon after, baggage master Crank came to him and informed him that, “he was about to get the baggage on deck preparatory for discharge on our arrival at Liverpool, and that already a working party awaited my arrival.” Realizing that he was in his good uniform, he went back to change into his old one that he kept for such an occasion. He had just finished changing, and was in the officer's smokeroom when the Lusitania was struck. “I heard an explosion... and went out on the bridge and I saw the track of the torpedo. It seemed to be fired in line with the bridge and it seemed to strike the ship between the second and third funnels as far as I could see... the possibility of the Lusitania being doomed never entered my head. A crippled engine maybe, followed by a limp into Queenstown..."

>Could the stairs from the Mail Sorting Room or Mail Room have become inaccessible due to the Torpedo?

Probably not. The torpedo struck between #1 and #2 funnels. The mail rooms were at the stern, two decks below the second class dining room.

 

[George L. Lorton]

Well no word what so ever of trapped crew men in Bestic's account.

Probably not. The torpedo struck between #1 and #2 funnels. The mail rooms were at the stern, two decks below the second class dining room.

I was thinking about the second explosion caused by the torpedo. It might of been a boiler or steam pipe? Maybe that was what disabled the stairs? I should of been more clear.

I'm starting to think that the trapped crew men was a bunch of hokum but I want to be sure we explore all the options. I was also so thinking about the three stowaways or spies locked up below. Could their screams, Jim be the ones some people like Wynne or Clarke heard? Did people even hear screams which they attributed to trapped crewmen or passengers in an elevator at all. These stories had to originate somewhere. What about Wynne and Clarke's accounts? Did they even give accounts of the disaster in 1915? Clarke who was a bellboy was only 15 and Wynne a Assistant Cook was only 16.

 

[Jason Schleisman]

Happy B-day Geo!

 

[George L. Lorton]

Thanks Jason!

 

[Jim Kalafus]

>Did people even hear screams which they attributed to trapped crewmen or passengers in an elevator at all.

No. In fact, in the several hundred accounts we've found from May 8-14, there are few if any mentions of screaming made in ANY contexts. There were MANY mentions made of people crying or sobbing; Sarah Lund was known to have stood at the top of the second class staircase calling out for her husband, but the only consistent mention of screams comes from accounts of lifeboats which dumped.

Which is why I don't believe the elevator story. People wrote, in those first days, accounts that were VERY specifically detailed and I don't think that someone who took the time to mention a minor detail such as a woman sobbing just outside the boat deck main entrance would either overlook, or neglect to mention, a cageful of screaming people he HAD to have seen as he ascended the stairs.

>I was also so thinking about the three stowaways or spies locked up below. Could their screams, Jim be the ones some people like Wynne or Clarke heard?

No.

Another detail about the elevators vis a vis Wynne, Clarke et al. The power failed early on in the disaster, but most people who were in the dining room were already well up the stairs when it happened. What could Wynne and Clarke have possibly have been doing to keep them from beginning to flee BEFORE the power failed? Even if there WAS an elevator, and the butchers commandeered it, it is not likely that with a staircase close at hand and the ship heeling dramatically, the others would have stood there waiting for it to return. If their survival instincts were as acute as those of the passengers, (and there is no reason to suspect otherwise) they would have been several flights up, or running aft towards the open decks on B Deck, by the time the power failed. And by the time those trapped realised it wasn't going to come back on again (logically, they would not have become instantly hysterical) there is no good reason for Wynne, Clarke, et al to be anyplace close to where they COULD have heard the screams.

>Did they even give accounts of the disaster in 1915?

Wynne definitely did.

 

[George L. Lorton]

I guess that means the elevator stories are a bunch of hokum. Not gonna wast my time on them anymore. Thanks Jim.

 

[Jim Kalafus]

>Not gonna waste my time on them anymore.

Taint a waste of time, George.

This is the sort of thing that is intriguing, but maddening, about research. The elevator horror stories- like the lifeboats tobogganing down the port side boat deck, which is another detail attributed to Bestic that he never said in 1915- are a story that has appeared, unquestioned, in quite a few Lusitania books.

Now, I don't KNOW if at some point after 1907 elevators were added to parts of the ship on which elevators were not shown on the 1907 deckplans. But, the facts that the lift operators survived and not a single survivor seems to have told the elevator story prior to 1918 (and that the 1918 account is so....fancifully...detailed that once suspects that who told it was "playing to the audience") SHOULD have caused all of the authors to at LEAST get curious enough to check the deckplans to see the physical layout of the questionable stories. But, evidently no one did. I think Kent is the first author since this story started circulating to make public the detail that the lift operators all survived.

So now I have to find a 1914 deckplan to see if maybe, by that time, an elevator was added to the baggage area. Then after that, one only has to determine, as the authors who repeat that detail SHOULD have, how Bestic could have learned that particular detail if he did not go anywhere near the baggage or mail room during the sinking and no one in the hold in which the incident occurred could possibly have escaped to tell him.

One detail...if you check either the Cunard confidential report, or the crew list in Kent's book (and I suggest the latter, available through Amazon) you'll see that the butchers had a mortality rate far in excess of what it should have been statistically. That at least one of them was recovered and buried works against the trapped in the lift story, BUT surviving crew members from the meat and poultry stores could have circulated that story in later years as a means of explaining what had happened to them all.

So, George, it's not wasting time...it's just STARTING to get good!

 

[George L. Lorton]

Taint a waste of time, George.

no it isn't a waste of time. I was frustrated when I wrote that. Why is it there are no stories til the end of the war. Could it have been a black out in the press. War Time Censorship?


When Edward VI was engaged to Wallis Simpson or seeing her there was a black out on the British press. Even American News Papers were held or blacked out (literally) coming into Britain. Why would they censor stories about people trapped in stalled elevators though?

So, George, it's not wasting time...it's just STARTING to get good!

Yes Jim, that it is I just hate dead leads.

 

[J Kent Layton]

Jim & all:

Sorry I've been out of touch; I was out of town. To answer your previous question, Jim, that pantry lift shown on E Deck did only go up to D Deck. As you say, there was no reason for it to go down, since only Firemens' Quarters were to be found below. I don't see why one would have been installed later, either, for the same reason -- although it's always good to check these things because many alterations were made to the ship between 1907 and 1915.

I found quite a bit of information on the ship's lifts, which I included on pgs. 65-66 of my book. In all there were eleven hoists/lifts throughout the ship. Of these, there were two baggage lifts, which ran from the Orlop to the Shelter Decks -- but these were placed astern, near the vicinity of the Mail Room.

The forward baggage compartment in the bow was accessed by a stairwell and there was also the No. 1 hatch, though which things would be lowered into the compartment by the gear on the Forecastle. Again I agree with you, Jim, that I can see no reason to have replaced the stairs forward with a lift between 1907 and 1915... it would seem to be inefficient.

So I think that the baggage compartment stories are, to say the least, suspect. If there were trapped men in there, it would have been because of structural damage in the bow that would have destroyed the stairs and somehow sealed off all other exits - and if I was trapped in there, I would at least have tried to get out via the main hatch.

As for the food lifts, they only had a maximum lifting capacity of 224 lbs. each -- which means they were not built to take humans, only foodstuffs. There's a picture of one in The Shipbuilder, and only a knave would have tried to squeeze himself in there in an emergency situation.

There's also some information on the operation of the passenger lifts on pg. 66, including their safety features, etc.

The upshot is this: let's suppose, for a minute, that there were passengers trapped in the one or both of the two First Class passenger lifts. If the lifts were in use when the power failed, it's *possible* that one got stuck with people inside, but it would not have been because the lift attendants were operating them; the only way this could have happened would be that passengers or other crewmen commandeered the lifts. Again, possible, but doesn't seem extremely likely.

If it happened, the main question, as you said, Jim is: why didn't the accounts of it show up sooner? I'm not sure I buy into wartime censorship because you had both British and American papers reporting on it from both British and American survivors, and the U.S. wasn't in the war yet. Would editors have thought it too grisly to include? Probably not; papers even then seemed to thrive on grisly details. It's possible that passengers were just too traumatized by the whole thing to talk about that aspect of the sinking until later, but again, that's a bit iffy. I would think it would have shown up somewhere sooner than 1918!

So hopefully we can dig up something more significant on the point down the road. I'm not willing to just dismiss the stories out of hand, but the careful review of the evidence that we've made on this thread alone shows that it's a lot more unlikely than everyone thinks when they first hear about it or read about it.

This is a great thread, and the ideas put out by all have been an excellent review/debate of the evidence. Take care!

 

[George L. Lorton]

I never even knew about the legend of butchers being trapped in lift/elevator. That's a new one for me.

BUT surviving crew members from the meat and poultry stores could have circulated that story in later years as a means of explaining what had happened to them all.

Hmm that could be what happened to the crew in the mail hold. Other crew members who made it like Bestic saying that the crew who didn't make it were trapped down there.

Baggage Hold Mystery? Lemme know if you find a copy of the Lusitania Deck Plans from 1914.

 

[George L. Lorton]

Howdy Kent

If there were trapped men in there, it would have been because of structural damage in the bow that would have destroyed the stairs and somehow sealed off all other exits - and if I was trapped in there, I would at least have tried to get out via the main hatch.

Maybe the second explosion after the Torpedo could of did some damage to the stairs or exits?

 

[J Kent Layton]

George,

Good idea, but probably not... it seems that the torpedo struck about 100-125 feet aft of the aft portion of the Baggage Room, about mid-way through Boiler Room No. 1's starboard coal bunker. It seems highly unlikely that enough damage was done that far forward to trap men in the Baggage Room.

If it was bad enough to wreak havoc in the Baggage Room, I would expect that it would also have killed the men inside, and most likely would have blown the hatch cover off the hatch on the Forecastle, as well. But no evidence exists to support such an event.

 

[George L. Lorton]

Kent,

Ms. Preston's theory is a steam pipe explosion. What about some other mayhem/problems with the piping perchance because of a boiler explosion?

 

[J Kent Layton]

George,

Preston is correct in following the evidence in the direction of a steam pipeline explosion. From the evidence we have in hand, and after forensic analysis and wreck investigation, that seems most likely what happened.

On the other hand, Jim's most recent research seems to be showing some interesting evidence that may touch on this point, however, we're straying from the original subject here.

Getting back on course - in either case, the blasts would have been far astern of the forward Baggage Room.

 

[George L. Lorton]

So why didn't the crew get out of the Baggage room? Was there somebody trapped under something perhaps?