Virginia Ethel Emanuel

Arun Vajpey

Arun Vajpey

Member
Supposedly the first picture in the link below is her.
No, it is definitely not her. In the first place, she does not look anything like the grown-up version of the picture of the 16 year old girl in Post #28 of this thread. Secondly, the name - Virginia Ethel Hansen - linked to that photograph suggests that the photo was probably of the imposter Vera Hanson herself.

Once again, whoever this Vera Hanson was, she most certainly was NOT Virginia Martin; she is an imposter who made a false claim and not even a plausible one at that.

PS: I had a completely off the wall thought just now. It is a complete conjecture on my part and no more.
On several reports the imposter Vera Hanson's surname has been spelt in 2 different ways - Hansen and Hanson. Up to now, I thought it was little more than a typo on someone's part but thought of a different possibility.
At some stage, the real Virginia Martin is likely to have married; what if she had married a man named Hansen? That could have given the imposter Vera Hanson the initiative to file a claim of being a Titanic survivor due to similarity in the surnames. But the fact remains that the "evidence" that Vera Hanson put forward is so shoddy and disprovable that the claim is a complete scam.
 
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Philip Hind
Staff member
Member
Are we saying that this "French Socialite Marquise Elisa Della Fellisa" is the former Esther Elise Martin, the mother of Virginia Martin?
Yes, and they both seem to have moved in pretty high social circles in France.

According to one article Virginia had theatrical aspirations herself, but so far I can only find her going to parties!

In some society pages in French newspapers she seems to go by the name "Bobbie Martin."

In this photo "Bobbie Martin" is shown with herself and Lucien Rosengart circled.
 
Arun Vajpey

Arun Vajpey

Member
According to one article Virginia had theatrical aspirations herself, but so far I can only find her going to parties!
Whatever else one might say about Elise, she appears to have had some success as an Opera Singer. Perhaps her daughter did not really have that talent.
 
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Philip Hind
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Found a reference on a French genealogy site to Virginia Martin being married to Lucien Rosengart and them having a son Jean Louis Rosengart (1932-2005). It gives her death date as 6 Aug 1936 in Paris, and buried at Cimetière du Père-Lachaise, Paris. I'll follow up and see if the tree owner can help.
 
Arun Vajpey

Arun Vajpey

Member
That's shocking. Lucien Rosengart was 24 years older than Virginia Martin; her actual date of birth is 6th October 1905 and she was born in New York, not in Rangoon 4 years later. But considering her mother's lifestyle that at one stage included reducing her own age by 17 years (from 39 to 22) and calling Virginia as her younger sister rather than daughter, anything is possible.

But that site describes the mother as "Cecile Phillips" which is confusing me a bit. Elise would have been Esther Elise Martin (nee Weil) when Virginia was born.

Sad that she died so young, at 31 years of age. Despite all that Paris High Society stuff, I have a feeling that Virginia was not a happy person, either as a child or as a young woman. RIP.
 
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Philip Hind
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But that site describes the mother as "Cecile Phillips"
Virginia’s grandmother was Celia Phillips though and don’t forget her mother sometimes claimed to be her sister! This info comes from the death certificate and it maybe the informant got things muddled or just didn’t know any better.
 
Arun Vajpey

Arun Vajpey

Member
This info comes from the death certificate and it maybe the informant got things muddled or just didn’t know any better.
The informant would have had his/her work cut out and anyone would have got muddled by the various names and backgrounds that Elise Martin went through. But your conjecture makes sense; if Elise was pretending to be Virginia's sister rather than her mother at the time the younger women married Lucien Rosengart, the French regulations would have needed a mother's name for the bride. So Elise would have had little choice but to substitute her own mother's name, albeit using her maiden surname. That also explains how Elise became Lucien Rosengart's "sister in law".

Great reserach :)
 
Steven Christian

Steven Christian

Member
No, it is definitely not her. In the first place, she does not look anything like the grown-up version of the picture of the 16 year old girl in Post #28 of this thread. Secondly, the name - Virginia Ethel Hansen - linked to that photograph suggests that the photo was probably of the imposter Vera Hanson herself.

Once again, whoever this Vera Hanson was, she most certainly was NOT Virginia Martin; she is an imposter who made a false claim and not even a plausible one at that.

PS: I had a completely off the wall thought just now. It is a complete conjecture on my part and no more.
On several reports the imposter Vera Hanson's surname has been spelt in 2 different ways - Hansen and Hanson. Up to now, I thought it was little more than a typo on someone's part but thought of a different possibility.
At some stage, the real Virginia Martin is likely to have married; what if she had married a man named Hansen? That could have given the imposter Vera Hanson the initiative to file a claim of being a Titanic survivor due to similarity in the surnames. But the fact remains that the "evidence" that Vera Hanson put forward is so shoddy and disprovable that the claim is a complete scam.
Yes it's why I said I'm not so sure. The picture that claims its her looks like her face/body is a lot thinner. I posted it because of the claim. Figured you would have found it sooner or later so was saving you the trouble. Cheers.
 
Arun Vajpey

Arun Vajpey

Member
Obviously, the outcome of the incredible research information that ET has unearthed about Virginia Martin changes a lot of things.

Most earlier information said that Virginia dropped off the radar after 1924 and so I had assumed that she took the benefits of the wills of John Martin and Harold Binney and walked out on her unstable mother to settle down to a quiet life somewhere. But the information that ET has unearthed points to a life that was far from that conjecture and in some ways rather sad. To put it in a nutshell, looks like Virginia Martin had started to follow her mother's footsteps but not very successfully; all that Paris Society glitz could not have brought her long term happiness. In the end, she married a man old enough to be her father, had a son from him and died aged 31 when the child was 4 years old.

So, it looks like Virginia Martin was already dead when 4 years later her mother Esther Elise, now in the guise of "Marquise Elisa Della Felisa" went to Hollywood in 1940 and expressed her disappointment about its lack of glamour. AFAIK, she lived in LA towards the end of her life and died there in 1959.

But the results of ET's research certainly puts paid once and for all Vera Hanson's 1950s false claim of being Virgina Martin.
 
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Philip Hind
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Now here is a very interesting possible Titanic coincidence. You may remember this photo I shared of Virginia Ethel Emanuel at a society party in 1927.


The lady 2nd from the right on the 2nd row is identified as "princesse Obolensky". It is quite a strong possibility that this is Ava Alice Muriel Astor, 1902-1956, daughter of Titanic victim John Jacob Astor, who married Prince Sergei Platonovich "Serge" Obolensky in 1924.
 
Arun Vajpey

Arun Vajpey

Member
I believe you are right. Many of Ava Astor's pictures show her with a similar head covering as the woman in the picture.

I have read accounts that Ava Astor had befriended the notorious American socialite Alice "Kiki" Preston in the early and middle 1920s during the Paris social circles of the era. Of course, later Kiki Preston moved to Kenya to join the hedonistic lifestyle of the Happy Valley Set. I do not remember the source but will post here if I find it.
 
Arun Vajpey

Arun Vajpey

Member
Here is another photo of Virginia with her husband Lucien Rosengart at the same party... she is listed as "Miss Bobby Rosengart"
Thanks Phil, but do you mind circling Virginia's face in that picture? Is she the young woman and the end of the third row with her left hand on her hip just behind the man with the open collar?
 
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Philip Hind
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It's not entirely clear from the caption which one she is, I thought maybe the woman at the front with her arm around Rosengart.
 
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