Virginia Ethel Emanuel

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Philip Hind
Staff member
Member
This is Virginia Martin's son Jean-Louis Rosengart (1932-2005).

Jean louis rosengart


Unfortunately, just a very small photo He suffered from severe mental illness for much of his life and was hospitalised more or less permanently from 1954-1992 when at the age of 60 he was moved to a home in St Malo. According to a brief biography of him although the Rosengart family paid for his care and endowed the hospital where he stayed it is said the family would deny there being any descendants, perhaps due to the stigma around mental illness at the time.

Another view of the mausoleum at Cimetière du Père-Lachaise.

Rosengart grave


Photos courtesy of the Rosengart Museum.
 
Arun Vajpey

Arun Vajpey

Member
Thanks Phil. Being from a medical background, I am a bit curious about the actual diagnosis of Jean-Louis Rosengart's mental condition. Also, I would like to know the causes of death (including any contributing illness) of both Elise Martin and her daughter Virginia.

If you feel that it is inappropriate to post those details in the open forums, please PM me.
 
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Philip Hind
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Hi Arun,

Elise Martin's cause of death was given as a heart attack in this press report from 1959.
I don't have her death certificate yet. Maybe someone in America could get it as I am not quite sure of the process.

French death certificates don't seem to give a cause of death. I added Virginia's to the media library here...

I do have Jean-Louis' death certificate also but again it does not give any cause of death.

I have transcribed the short biography of Jean-Louis kindly supplied by the Rosengart Museum. It was a bit hard to read so there might be some mistakes, also below is a rough translation (German speakers will do better than Google!)

Biography of Jean-Louis Rosengart
Jean-Louis Rosengart wurde am 9 Marz 1932, im Hause seiner Eltern, Lucien Jaques Rosengart und Virginia Martin, der zweiten Ehefrau die Lucian [sic] 1930 geheiratet hatte, nachdem die erste Ehe 1925 geschieden wurde, in der Rue Leroux Nr. 16, im 16 Arrondissement, in der Nahe des Arc de Triomphe und nicht weit von den Rosengart Automobilfabriken am Boulevard de Dixmude entfernt geboren.

Am 8 Juli 1934 wurde er zusammen mit seiner Mutter Virginia Martin in der Pfarrkirche Meulan der Diozese Versailles getauft. Taufpaten waren sein Onkel Sylvain Charles Rosengart (der drei Jahre altere Bruder seines Vaters) und seine Tante Yvonne Famel.

Die Familie zog 1935 in die Avenue D'lena Nr. 10 direkt am Place Charles De Gaule.

Im Alter von 18 Jahren erkrankle er an Schizophrenie, der Beginn einer solchen Bewusstseins-Spaltung tritl sehr haufig bei Jugendlichen in diesem Alter auf, die bei ihn zwiespaltige Storungen auslosten und sich bei ihn so äußberten, das er alles zerstoren wollte.

Die Erkrankung verstärkte sich so dass die Familie beschloss ihn 1954 in eine geschlossene Psychiatrie einzuweisen. Er fand bei dem honorigen Orden der Brüder Goties [?] Aufnahme, wurde hier behandelt und auch operiert. Dier familie hat dem Orden eine erhebliche Surmme zur Verfugung gestellt, so dass zeitlebens genügende Mittel vorhanden waren das der Sohn sein Auskommen und auch ein ausreichendes Taschengeld hatte, das er für gelegentiche auswärtige Restaurantbesuche in Begleitung seines Pflegers frei einsetzen konnte. Der Kurator des Ordens wurde außerdem jährlich mit einem schönen Weinpräsent, aus dem privaten Weinkeller von Lucien Rosengart, bedacht.

Aus nicht bekannten Gründen, hat die Familie Lucien Rosengart zeitlebens geleugnet Nachkommen zu haben. Eventuell war es der hoch angesehenen Familie nur unangenehn mit diesen Dingen in Verbindung gebracht zu werden.

Entsprechend der Regelungen im französischen Gesundheitswesen wenden die Patienten mit 60 Jahren aus der geschlossenen Abteilung entlassen und von entsprechenden Alterwohnheimen betreut.

Für Jean-Louis Rosengart war die Zeit 1992 so weit, er lebt jetzt zwar bescheiden aber durchaus annehbar in einen Altenheim in der Nähe von San Malo [Saint-Malo?].

Karl-Heinz Bonk vom Rosengart Museum in Bedburg Rath ist es zu verdanken, das nach sechs Jahren intensiver Nachforschung in Frankreich, die Existenz lebenden Nachkommen von Lucien Rosengart nachgewiesen ist.

Am 15.05.2001 kam es zu einer ersten persönlichen Begegnung, die von dem letzen Pfleger aus dem Orden arrangiert wurde, nachdem tags zuvor schon zufalligerweise ein Blickkontakt auf der Strasse stattfand und ein bon jour ausgetauscht wurde.

Der Sohn sieht seinen Vater sehr ähnlich, aber es fällt auf, das die seinerzeitige Erkrankung und Unterbringung ihre Spuren hinterlassen haben. Im Gespräch kann er sich jedoch noch gut an seine Kindheit und an die Fabriken seines Vaters erinnern. Die Zeit in der Psychiatrie hat er jedoch verdrängt und spricht auch nicht darüber, fragt aber eigentlich bei jeder Begegung, Bin ich denn immer noch enterbt?

Weitere Besuche in den Folgejahren zeigen jedoch, dass sein Kurzzeit Gedächtnis zu wünschen übrig lasst. Er kann sich an uns kaum erinnern aber er frägt mit Stolz seinen Button - Rosengart Wappenemblem - den er bei unserem zweiten Besuch zusammen mit einer neuen Armbanduhr zu seinem 70 Geburtstag 2002 geschenkt bekommen hat. In seinern neuen Zimmer hängt außerdem des Plakat des Rosengart Museum.

Ein Glas Rotwein und seine Zigaretten "Gouloise sans filtre" verschönen sein Leben.
Translation
Jean-Louis Rosengart was born on 9 March 1932, in the home of his parents, Lucien Jaques Rosengart and Virginia Martin, the second wife whom Lucian [sic] had married in 1930, the first marriage ending in 1925, at 16 rue Leroux, Born in the 16 arrondissement, near the Arc de Triomphe and not far from the Rosengart car factories on Boulevard de Dixmude.

On July 8, 1934 he was baptized with his mother, Virginia Martin, in the Parish Church of Meulan in the Diocese of Versailles. His godparents were his uncle Sylvain Charles Rosengart (his father's brother, three years his senior) and his aunt Yvonne Famel.

The family moved in 1935 to 10 Avenue D'lena, just off Place Charles De Gaule.

At the age of 18 he fell ill with schizophrenia, the beginning of such a split in consciousness occurs very often in young people of this age, which triggered double disorders in him and expressed themselves in him in such a way that he wanted to destroy everything.

The illness worsened so that in 1954 the family decided to commit him to a closed psychiatric ward. He was admitted to the honorable order of the Goties brothers [?], where he was treated and also operated on. The family made a considerable sum available to the order, so that there were sufficient means throughout life for the son to make a living and also had sufficient pocket money, which he was free to use for occasional visits to restaurants outside of town, accompanied by his caregiver. The curator of the order was also honored every year with a beautiful gift of wine from Lucien Rosengart's private wine cellar.

For unknown reasons, the Lucien Rosengart family denied having any descendants throughout their lives. Perhaps the well-respected family just felt uncomfortable being associated with these things.

In accordance with the regulations in the French health care system, patients are released from the closed ward at the age of 60 and cared for in suitable old people's homes.

For Jean-Louis Rosengart the time had come in 1992, he now lives modestly but quite decently in an old people's home near San Malo [Saint-Malo?].

It is thanks to Karl-Heinz Bonk from the Rosengart Museum in Bedburg Rath that, after six years of intensive research in France, the existence of living descendants of Lucien Rosengart has been proven.

On May 15th, 2001 there was a first personal meeting, which was arranged by the last nurse from the order, after the day before an accidental eye contact had taken place on the street and a bonjour had been exchanged.

The son looks very similar to his father, but it is noticeable that the illness and accommodation at the time have left their mark. In conversation, however, he can still remember his childhood and his father's factories well. However, he has suppressed the time in psychiatry and does not talk about it either, but actually asks at every encounter, am I still disinherited?

However, further visits in the following years show that his short-term memory leaves a lot to be desired. He can hardly remember us, but he proudly asks for his button - Rosengart coat of arms emblem - which he received on our second visit together with a new wristwatch for his 70th birthday in 2002. The Rosengart Museum poster also hangs in his new room.

A glass of red wine and his "Gouloise sans filtre" cigarettes brighten up his life.

Although not specifically related, these photographs give an idea (perhaps a terrifying one) of what those institutions might have been like
 
Arun Vajpey

Arun Vajpey

Member
Thanks for that Phil.
French death certificates don't seem to give a cause of death. I added Virginia's to the media library here...

1490 - Martin - Rosengart
On August 6, 1936, 7 p.m., died at her home, avenue d'Iéna, 10, Virginie MARTIN, born in Rangoon (British Indies) on October 6, 1999, no profession-daughter of Arthur MARTIN and Cécile PHILIPPS, deceased spouse; wife of Lucien ROSENGART. Drawn up on August seventh nineteen hundred six, eleven twenty minutes, on the declaration of Marcel SPITEN Thirty-four years old, employee, 3 rue Mensil, who, having read it, signed with Us Daniel MARIN deputy mayor of the Sixteenth arrondissement of Paris, Chevalier of the Legion of Honor. G.
I checked the French version on Google Translate and it really says that Virginia's Date of Birth was October 6th 1999o_O in Rangoon! As far as we know, she was born on October 6th 1905 in New York but knowing the surprises that have sprung up so far thanks to your research, anything is possible. Her mother Elise sounds like she lived her life more through imaginative stories than the truth. But somehow I feel sorry for Virginia; despite all that high society freewheeling, I have a feeling that her short life was not a happy one.
 
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Philip Hind
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I think you mean 1909 [my original transcript had a typo]. Yes, that is an error, as is Rangoon... or rather we assume she was born in the same city that her birth was registered (New York City) but I suppose anything is possible. It could be she was born in Rangoon, but the only indication of this seems to come much later on, in various passenger lists and here in the death certificate. Elise was clearly prone to exaggeration and falsification of fact, not least her own age, so maybe this is another example and perhaps Virginia perpetuated whatever stories Elise came up with, but this is all just speculation.
 
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Philip Hind
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I would like to know the causes of death (including any contributing illness) of both Elise Martin and her daughter Virginia.
I've read somewhere that Virginia died of tuberculosis but I don't know where I saw that and I certainly have not seen any documentary source to confirm it. It is plausible though. Before she was found there were all kinds of theories about what happened to her, including that she had died in the holocaust.
 
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Philip Hind
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Are you sure?
"le six octobre mil neuf cent neuf" translates as "the sixth of october nineteen hundred and nine"
Maybe some French people can help us out!
 
Arun Vajpey

Arun Vajpey

Member
Are you sure?
I tried copy and paste of the French version onto Google Translate and the translation said 1999. I was using the e-font "1490" entry because the original typewritten version could be copied.

I re-checked just now and it definitely said October 6th 1999.
 
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Philip Hind
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Must be a quirk of Google translate. Anyway just to add to the mix, Jean-Louis' birth certificate gives Virginia's birth as 6 October 1907, Rangoon (British India).

La neuf mars mil neuf cent trente deux, dix neuf heures trente minutes, est né rue Leroux 16, Jean-Louis, du sexe masculin, de Lucien ROSENGART, né à Paris (3e) le onze janvier mil huit cent quatre vingt un, industriel, Commandeur de la Légion d'Honneur, et de Virginia MARTIN, née a Rangoon (Indes anglais) le six octobre mil neuf cent sept, sans profession, son époúse, domilciliés cómme dessus. Dressé le onze mars mil neuf cent trente deux, quátorze heures cinquante minutes, sur la déclaration du père qui lecture faite a signé avec Nous, Edgard BERTHEMET adjoint au Marie du seizième arrondisement de Paris, Chavallier de la légion d'Honneur.
On March 9, 1932, 19:30, was born rue Leroux 16, Jean-Louis, male, to Lucien ROSENGART, born in Paris (3rd) on January 11, 1881, industrialist, Commander of the Legion of Honour, and of Virginia MARTIN, born in Rangoon (British India) on October 6, 1907, without profession, his wife, domiciled as above. Drawn up on March 11, 1932, 14:50, on the declaration of the father who, having read it, has signed with Us, Edgard BERTHEMET deputy to the Marie of the sixteenth arrondissement of Paris, Knight of the Legion of Honour.
 
Arun Vajpey

Arun Vajpey

Member
Anyway just to add to the mix, Jean-Louis' birth certificate gives Virginia's birth as 6 October 1907, Rangoon (British India).
"Mix" is right. The only thing consistent with Virginia's date of birth is that she was born on 6th of October; the actual year varies between 1905 (likely the correct one), 1907, 1909 and God knows what else. Obviously, all those dates and places were given at various stages by her mother Elise, depending on whom she was co-habiting or married to at the time or the sort of circles she was moving in. As we know, Elise repeatedly sliced off years off her own real age in order to pretend to be Virginia's sister; at some stage her physical appearance must have changed sufficiently to make that ploy difficult.
 
Arun Vajpey

Arun Vajpey

Member
The one thing that I wondered is why it had been so difficult to get any information about the short but highly eventful post-disaster life of Virginia-Martin Emanuel till Phil Hind's superb recent research exposed what happened to her. It was assumed that after 1924 Virginia simply "dropped off the public radar", a scenario that helped Vera Hanson and her seedy lawyer L M Wilkins attempt their scam in the 1950s that the former was actually Virginia herself. While they did not actually get away with it, there were at least some Titanic enthusiasts who thought that Vera Hanson's story was true. Andrew Wilson and Judith Geller even mentioned Hanson in their books and many early posters here on ET thought the same.

My hypothesis is that on board the Titanic and in the early aftermath of the disaster, Virginia was known as Virginia Emanuel, having been tagged with her stepfather Walter Emanuel's name. But her mother Esther Elise divorced Emanuel in 1913 and soon afterwards Virginia reverted to her biological father's name and became Virginia Martin again. Growing-up, she was part of her mother's hedonistic lifestyle especially after they started living in Paris. By then Esther as claiming to be her daughter's older sister than her mother and all that might have led to confusion and unintentional temporary erasure of Virginia's position as a Titanic survivor. Her premature death in 1936 would have virtually removed her from the public radar and with her mother moving to California in 1940, Virginia was soon forgotten.
 
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Philip Hind
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The one thing that I wondered is why it had been so difficult to get any information
Good question, though I guess most people simply weren't looking. Hansen though should have been easier to debunk a lot sooner than she was. The solution to the puzzle was in plain sight as the Rosengart connection first emerges in this 1940 newspaper article:


But as far as I know, no one previously followed it up.

Regarding Elise's date of arrival in the US. In the same article, she says she has been in hospital four months, so that suggests she arrived in January 1940. There is no available passenger list that mentions her then, but she is on the Manhattan arriving in March 1939.
 
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Philip Hind
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She is quite a baffling woman. I got her 1921 divorce papers from her marriage to The journalist Paul Brewster in which she alleges both adultery and that he basically beat her up. But then in 1924 she is on a passenger list where she gives him as her home country contact, describing him as her brother in law!?!?
 
Arun Vajpey

Arun Vajpey

Member
She is quite a baffling woman. I got her 1921 divorce papers from her marriage to The journalist Paul Brewster in which she alleges both adultery and that he basically beat her up.
I think "baffling" is an understatement. From what I have read about Elise, she had several paramours in addition to 6 husbands. so, accusing one of them of adultery is rather odd.

Elise seemed quite at home in Paris and so I wonder if her sudden departure to America in 1940 had something to do with her Jewish ancestry?
 
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