Voyages That Didnt Happen

May 3, 2005
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My experience with RMS Queen Mary in 1965 might also be considered as " Voyages that didn't happen" as reported in a previous post . LOL
 
May 3, 2005
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Having to replace Titanic with Majestic must have been a tough blow for White Star, particularly if they were trying to cement brand loyalty. There was a far cry between the type of passage one could expect from an Olympic class liner, and Majestic--the Majestic having been built in 1889.

Furthermore, White Star would suffer more with the loss of Britannic in the First World War. Basically, they had to go an entire decade with only one large modern liner, but I suppose this was partially true of Cunard as well. Cunard lost Lusitania during the war, but Aquitania, which was finishing her fitting out (much like Britannic) in August of 1914 survived. Meaning pretty quickly after the war Cunard was able to restart at least her two ship express service.

Cunard did have to wait to start her three ship express service though with the loss of Lusitania. Having purchased Imperator from the British government and re-christening her Berengaria, it turned out she needed an extensive rebuild before she was ready to actually enter service for Cunard.

Incidentally, I forgot about the IMM angle. White Star *could* easily re-book people on other IMM ships, but in addition to what you pointed out, Sam, regarding the reluctance to board ships with inadequate lifeboat capacity immediately after Titanic sank, I assume many people booking passage on a large modern liner--and paying a premium--were doing so on purpose.

Given this, had I purchased passage on Titanic's return voyage, I would be pretty irritated to now how to take one of these smaller IMM vessels, which had far fewer amenities, was far slower, and much more prone to roll around in the ocean and make passengers sick for half the voyage.
Considering you would have had " to take one of these smaller IMM vessels" do you think you would have gone ahead on your voyage anyway ?
 

Seumas

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Many immigrants would just want to get to the USA or to Canada and start their new life. Not everyone would care about whether vessel X was more luxurious, fast and up-to-date than vessel Y.
 
May 3, 2005
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Many immigrants would just want to get to the USA or to Canada and start their new life. Not everyone would care about whether vessel X was more luxurious, fast and up-to-date than vessel Y.
First and Second Class westbound ?
 
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Seumas

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I daresay some of them of them might care but then as now there are still those only interested in getting from one country to another. A first class couple who take their meals in their cabin and only go for a walk on deck at night won't care about the lounge, the library, deck games or the smoking room.

Someone who in 1912 booked a first or second class passage on the packed Allan Line or Anchor Line steamers departing from the Clyde wasn't bothered about luxury or speed or the prestige of the vessels, they just wanted a simple, safe passage to North America.
 

Mike Spooner

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Majestic maiden voyage 1890 may have an older ship for WSL. But how about there other newer big four ships built for WSL.
Celtic, Cedric, Baltic and Adriatic! They may of been bit slower than the Olympic and Titanic, but certainly had a high standard of luxury not to be laugh at!
 

Scott Mills

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Considering you would have had " to take one of these smaller IMM vessels" do you think you would have gone ahead on your voyage anyway ?
Well, that all depends on why you were traveling, and any other arrangements you had made. I am sure some would simply cancel the voyage; however, if you had made it all the way to New York from Kansas by rail, or were traveling for business. then probably.
 

Jim Kalafus

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>Were there any records of whether or not any of those persons mentioned in those news articles continued on their voyages

Yes. The Ancestry database allows one to determine which ships they eventually crossed on. Many crossed IMM. Some, business travellers, crossed on the Mauretania,

>Does anyone know how long it took White Star to refund tickets sold for Titanic's return voyage, or whether or not White Star merely transferred passengers to another White Star liner?

The Indianapolis newlyweds were told, after the disaster but before they were married, that White Star had taken care if their rebooking. So they departed on schedule. It was handled quickly,
 
May 3, 2005
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Many immigrants would just want to get to the USA or to Canada and start their new life. Not everyone would care about whether vessel X was more luxurious, fast and up-to-date than vessel Y.
I think the difference would be in whether you consider whether the persons were concerned about the reason for their journey.
The west bound immigrants would not care what type ship they would take.
Their aim was just to be to get to the United States or Canada.
Besides most of them probably had no idea of what ships and ocean voyages were like.
So it would make no difference to them as to what kind of ship on which they sailed.

Eastbound passengers , I think , would be mostly those of at least the upper class or rich who were traveling for pleasure and would be more discerning .

I would have to review the 1997 "Titanic" but I think there might have been somewhere in the movie why or how "Jack Dawson" got to France in the first place ?
 
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Have you ever heard of anyone who had ever planned a trip by ship, examined what was available and got so turned off by what they saw and abandoned any and all plans for them ?
 

Jim Kalafus

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You took the ship that fit your schedule. You took the ship that fit your budget. You took a ship you'd previously enjoyed good service on, You took ships that were "Good sea boats."

You didnt take a ship for social cachet. That was the stuff of publicity blurbs and doddering "Before the revolution we used to own all this" tomes cranked out in the 1970s. People did not snicker behind their fans because you arrived on the Alopetia and not the socially correct Hydrocephalic,

Stability at sea was a far greater factor than "Luxury." The ships were not particularly luxurious when compared to even midblock hotels. Elevators were exciting when the Collins ships appeared. There was nothing aboard the Olympic class ships that would cause even the most easily impressed small town baron to stare with wonder and disbelief. The New Cornhusker Hotel back home offered bigger rooms, en suite bath and toilet, larger beds than the ship did. What the traveller wanted was not to spend five of seven days violently ill.

Some believed that big ships were steadier and less prone to vibration. Some were. Some, however, were not
 

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Scott Mills

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I think the difference would be in whether you consider whether the persons were concerned about the reason for their journey.
The west bound immigrants would not care what type ship they would take.
Their aim was just to be to get to the United States or Canada.
Besides most of them probably had no idea of what ships and ocean voyages were like.
So it would make no difference to them as to what kind of ship on which they sailed.

Eastbound passengers , I think , would be mostly those of at least the upper class or rich who were traveling for pleasure and would be more discerning .

I would have to review the 1997 "Titanic" but I think there might have been somewhere in the movie why or how "Jack Dawson" got to France in the first place ?
I don't think it is entirely true that immigrants would not care which vessel they were traveling on. This is exactly why the dummy funnel was added to the Olympic class vessels--for marketing reasons, White Star felt that immigrants felt more secure on four funnel liners. In addition, this is also why third class passage on an Olympic class liner was considerably more than on a smaller immigrant boat, and why White Star invested in improving the amenities and travel experience of third class passengers.

You also have to remember that, with ocean liners of the period, the immigrants themselves did a lot of the marketing for the shipping lines and for individual ships, as an immigrant who traveled to the new world on say Olympic would write to their family still in their home country and tell them about their experience on Olympic. Thus if the experience of a third class passenger was good, they would be likely to recommend travelling on a White Star vessel to their family who had not yet traveled to the Americas.

That being said, you are definitely spot on about the passengers on an East bound voyage being more likely to be discerning about which vessel they were going to take, and more likely to refuse being switched from Titanic to some smaller vessel with less amenities.
 
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Thanks very much , Scott Mills -
I am not very much on Titanic lore and even less on nautical subjects, so I usually try to be just an observer on these forums.
I had just thought that the immigrants were more or less just looking for the first ship available and not particularly interested in what kind of ship it was , how large, etc., it was but just in any ship that would get them across at the least cost.
I should also think that the more affluent "pleasure travelers" would make their choices based on how large, luxurious and fast a ship was and be willing to pay more for them.

In researching some information on family history, I came across some information on my ancestors.
The Paige Family emigrated from Tunbridge Wells, Kent County, England, UK to Belton, Bell County, Texas, USA in 1885.
I haven't found the reason for this except an exchange of letters with a friend who had previously settled in Belton and had recommended it for economic reasons.
Instead of taking an English ship, they were reported to have gone to the Netherlands and took a Dutch Ship the "Edam" for their voyages .
Mr.Paige was quite a letter writer. in one letter to his English family he describes his family's trip by train from New York to Belton as "Quite an adventure ! "
The mother and her daughter made a trip to visit relatives in Tunbridge Wells in 1926, sailing on SS Leviathan.
Other trips were made in 1936 and later years by other relatives.
One report was of a return voyage was of a passage in Third Class on RMS Queen Mary on the 1936 trip.
 
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May 3, 2005
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You took the ship that fit your schedule. You took the ship that fit your budget. You took a ship you'd previously enjoyed good service on, You took ships that were "Good sea boats."

You didnt take a ship for social cachet. That was the stuff of publicity blurbs and doddering "Before the revolution we used to own all this" tomes cranked out in the 1970s. People did not snicker behind their fans because you arrived on the Alopetia and not the socially correct Hydrocephalic,

Stability at sea was a far greater factor than "Luxury." The ships were not particularly luxurious when compared to even midblock hotels. Elevators were exciting when the Collins ships appeared. There was nothing aboard the Olympic class ships that would cause even the most easily impressed small town baron to stare with wonder and disbelief. The New Cornhusker Hotel back home offered bigger rooms, en suite bath and toilet, larger beds than the ship did. What the traveller wanted was not to spend five of seven days violently ill.

Some believed that big ships were steadier and less prone to vibration. Some were. Some, however, were not
I have read that there were reports that RMS Queen Mary had rolling and vibration problems.
And from the looks of things as I saw them, I would prefer a single at Motel 6 to C-119 on Queen Mary . LOL

The ships on which I served were much smaller, but I never noticed any particular violent rolling and I don't remember noticing any vibration.
I was OK on calm seas and only experienced one bad storm and was OK on that.
But what "did me in" and caused a bit of queasonis ( ? Spelling ? ) were long rolls back and forth.
I think they were called "swells" ?
 
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Jim Kalafus

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Queen Mary wallowed in the roll, quite frighteningly,
Normandie vibrated. A letter sold on eBay described how the vibration had finally caused the author to vomit. She then scrawled I HATE THIS SHIP up the margin.
Lusitania vibrated.

Lusi. Winter 1915, Violent storm. The one planned event of the crossing- the charity concert- was literally kneecapped when one of the celebrities was hurled from his berth. The others were sick. In the end, singer Elsie Janis did a long set, and a well-travelled passenger imitated the whoops and cries of African and Indian fauna. Such was the glamourous world of belle epoque first class.

Liner letters tend to focus on I AM BORED. I HATE MY FELLOW PASSENGERS. I AM BORED. Somehow all the glamour and excitement nattered about 50 years later didnt make the jump to the page when the person was actually sitting on the ship.
Amenities would have been fairly low down on the list of reasons to choose a ship. The Titanic boasted no amenities worthy of altering one's plans over. The only contemporary review of the Turkish Bath was a negative one written on board by, I believe, Mrs Speddon.

If you check the NY and Boston newspapers, you'll see that The Big 4 continued to draw photo-worthy celebrity trade well into the 1920s. If the Cedric fit your schedule best then Cedric it was. No one, in 1912, would have viewed those nearly-new liners as a step backward,

Reaction in 1912 would not have been clutching the pearls while gasping "Oh NO. Crossing by lesser ship." It would have been "How badly is this going to throw off our schedule? Unless we get another seven day boat leaving on Saturday, there will be a mess waiting on the other side"
 

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Seumas

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Queen Mary wallowed in the roll, quite frighteningly,
Normandie vibrated. A letter sold on eBay described how the vibration had finally caused the author to vomit. She then scrawled I HATE THIS SHIP up the margin.
Lusitania vibrated.

Lusi. Winter 1915, Violent storm. The one planned event of the crossing- the charity concert- was literally kneecapped when one of the celebrities was hurled from his berth. The others were sick. In the end, singer Elsie Janis did a long set, and a well-travelled passenger imitated the whoops and cries of African and Indian fauna. Such was the glamourous world of belle epoque first class.
Is it true that during her sea trials they managed to get the Lusitania's engines up to about twenty seven or twenty eight knots or so but the stern of the ship was shaking alarmingly ?
 

Jim Kalafus

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The stern shook alarmingly during the trials. Second class was rebuilt, with lots of stiffening introduced. But vibration remained a problem.

"May I have a towel?"
"No. But we've never lost a life."

Lusitania era joke about Cunard's low-budget non-appeal. You got there fast. And you got there safe. But you did not disembark feeling like the most coddled guest at The Plaza.
 
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Mike Spooner

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"No. But we've never lost a life"? May be in peacetime. She may of had her vibration problems and certainly built as a luxury liner for the rich. Built in Scotland and not in England or Ireland to! I may a bit cynical here to say at least Lusitania did the Atlantic cross 200 times more than the Titanic ever did!
 

Seumas

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"No. But we've never lost a life"? May be in peacetime.

It's a perfectly innocent peacetime joke. We can't compare that to an act of war.

She may of had her vibration problems and certainly built as a luxury liner for the rich.

There was room for 460 second class and 1,186 third class passengers in contrast to 552 first class. Cunard needed the immigrant trade just as much as their main competitors Hamburg-America, White Star and Norddeutscher Lloyd needed it. After the war when the USA implemented tight immigration quotas, it hit these companies finances.

Built in Scotland and not in England or Ireland to!

Nothing noteworthy about that. Scotland once had a huge shipbuilding industry and produced a considerable portion of the world's merchant fleets in addition to warships.

Including:

Several of the worlds largest ships - Atrato (1853), City of New York (1888), Campania (1893), Lusitania (1907), Queen Mary (1936) & Queen Elizabeth (1946).

And most of the ships who held the "Blue Riband" at one time or another - Sirius, Britannia, Columbia, Cambria, Hibernia, Canada, Persia, Scotia, City of Brussels, City of Berlin, Arizona, Alaska, Oregon, Ertruria, Umbria, City of Paris, City of New York, Campania, Lucania, Lusitania & Queen Mary.

The Germans were amazing shipbuilders. Possibly the best in all honesty. Many jingoistic British naval engineers, naval architects and historians would never admit that however.
 
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Mike Spooner

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I would agree the third class passengers where good business for the ship owners as long they can fill them! The first class passengers trade was also good business too. The only reason I mention built in Scotland, is the fact we hear so much about the builders of White Star ships by H&W in Belfast, to the point they are the largest ship building in world in a class of there own!
Plain fact ships built in Belfast only account for 9-10% all ships built in the UK. Half the ships built in Belfast from 1900 on are coming from Workman & Clark shipyard. So lets have some good praise from other shipyards in the UK to.