Even Lord Mersey accepted that his figures were impossible. His count being about 200 more than were actually in the boats. After taking about 30 off the total for the impossible 71 persons for boat C; allowing that boat 1 was correct and 5 and 7 close the other 14 boats need to have 170 persons removed from them.
Working aft on the port-side, boat D was about 22 under its estimate; boat 2 is now generally put at about 18 = 8 under. For boat 4 with some questions over who was in the boat was probably about 10 under. For boats 6 & 8 we can reduce by about 7 & 11; to about 21 and 28 respectively.
For boat 10 the number is now accepted to be about 30, so less 25; for boat 12 the estimate can be reduced by perhaps 20. In part I believe this depends on a reverse count. How many were in the boat when it was picked up? Take off the number taken from boats 14 & 4.
Boat 14: While I dislike estimates [they are usually too high]; allowing that about 48 [estimates given in Gracie's book suggest about 12 (10 or 12 for D) each] were put into boats 4, 10, 12 & D with 2 men taken from 10; and 7 returning in boat 14, then there will have been about 53 in boat 14. - So about 10 below the British figure; and 5 below Lowe's about 58 in reply to Senator Smith on the number in boat 14.
Recent estimates put 16 at closer to 35, so about 21 below the British figure.
I realize that many of these figures are quite speculative, but it indicates the British Inquiry over-estimation for the port boats could be close to [as high as?] 135. That is starting to make full after starboard boats a possibility.
But what of the remaining starboard boats? How many crew were in boat 3? Was it 3 or 15? In other words were there about 28 or about 40 in the boat? Accepting the higher figure reduces the British figure by 10.
The British figure for the after starboard boats is 260. So if what I have outlined above is anything like correct then 260 will reduce to about 235; which would seem to suggest close to full boats for 11, 13 and 15. 9 by all estimates I have seen being less full.
So in answer to Delia's question the only boats that I would point to as probably being lowered full are boats 11, 13 & 15.
But if recent calculations for some of the port-boats are too low then there will have been fewer persons in the after starboard boats. - At least that is how I see the situation. - Any added thoughts would be appreciated.
Both the Gracie and British Inquiry lifeboat totals are higher than the actual number of people saved - see Lifeboat Survivor Totals
for a comparison of the two. Note Collapible C - the BI has 71, a ridiculous total in light of the fact that C has a capacity of 40. A few more would fit, but almost double I seriously doubt.
Even the BI said "It is obvious that these figures are quite unreliable, for only 712 were, in fact, saved".
What the 'real' number in each lifeboat were, I doubt cannot be accurately calculated.
Thank you for that. I agree that 'real' numbers are unlikely.
What I was attempting to demonstrate was that the more people in the port boats the less in the starboard boats and that if the newest estimates for the port boats should be too low then the chances of full starboard boats was less likely.
Hi there boat 12 only had about 26 people in in as did boat 6 it seem so many port side boats were lowered less than half-empty as no men were allowed in the boats which was a disgrace as so many died when there was so many empty spaces, collasible D only left with 24 boat 4 with about 30 boat 2 with 18 so many men died as these were the last lifeboats lowered less that half filled and were not allowed to board. Look at the starboard boats 11,13,15 these were the only lifeboats filled to leave the titanic
Boat 6 had less than 26. We have reasonably good photographs of the boat as it drew close to the Carpathia. It is generally accepted that there were 22 in the boat. Allowing that a man was transferred in from boat 16 and that Major Peuchen only joined the boat after they had started to lower it; if you also allow that Margaret Brown was apparently dropped into the boat after it started to lower then I am inclined to the view that it was ordered away with only 19 in it.
Hello everybody. The port boats left the ship with fewer people on board than the starboard ones, as a rule. The average in the starboard boats, I believe, might have been somewhere around 42 and in the port boats 30 or 31.
Some comments for Lester; No 14 distributed some of its occupants. I should think about a dozen each to boats 10 and 12 and some also to boat D. I haven't seen anyone in boat 4 reporting that they received people though. I have a feeling that only about 30 of the 45 or so people in 14 were transferred.
Quite a few of the occupants in the starboard lifeboats were crewmen; there were probably more than a dozen in No 3, about 18 each in boats 9 and 11, 25 in 13 and 27 or 28 in No 15 (counting male crewmembers).
To the best of my knowledge, only boats 13 and 15 were full, 11 and possibly collapsible C coming close.
Thank you for that.
My understanding is that Lowe said that he distributed all of his passengers among the other "4" boats, and returned with 6 others; 5 on the oars and one in the bow.
I note that you accept that some passengers - including women & children [?] - stayed in boat 14.
I agree with you, Peter. In boats 11, 13, 15 and collapsible C were really many people. All of this lifeboats were on the starboard. What about portside? Which of the portside's boats include the biggest number of the survivors?
Hi Lester; I am sure Lowe believed this to be true, but as I said earlier, I haven't found anyone in boat No 4 who said they took people from 14. Some of the crew in 14 said they transferred people to two or three other boats. Some people stayed in boat 14, e g the Collyers and Charles Williams.
It is equally uncertain how many people actually were saved by No 14 later; some say four were dragged into it, but two died, others suggest three were saved from the water and one died, Lowe said he saved four but one died. It is difficult to say.
Fullest portside boats (using the British Inquiry figures:
16 56 persons
14 63 persons
10 55 persons
D 44 persons (4 over capacity)
Interesting in that each of these had other officers loading besides Lightoller! He was seen at 14 (but Lowe & Wilde were there), and D (Wilde there too). Also, these boats were later in the launch sequence.
Hello Bill! As somebody stated earlier, the British Inquiry figures were rather exaggerated; No 16 may have had 35 or 40 on board, 14 perhaps 45, No 10 possibly 30 or 35 and boat D had some 20 when lowered (excluding Woolner and Steffanson). Both Hardy and Bright said there were approximately 25 in this boat, whereas AB Lucas said there were 44. Lightoller thought he put 15 or 20 in it; this boat had quite a few empty seats available when lowered away. I believe you can see this on the picture of boat D; I have counted 29 or 30 in it. If you add two or three children who cannot be seen and then deduct ten or so from No 14 you come up with something like 25 in it (including Frederick Hoyt)from the beginning, provided you add the two firemen and AB Lucas who were transferred to boat 12.
Lester, you are absolutely right. I think it was immediately after that discussion I started to actually check what the people in those lifeboats said. The thing is, nobody in boat No 4 mentioned anyone being transferred from another boat, save from the 'overturned collapsible boat' (and No 12 seems to have taken most of those at any rate). If anyone finds statements to the effect that No 4 took some, I would be very interested to know about it, of course.
Thank you for that. At the moment the only photograph I can find of boat 14 as it approached the Carpathia is in the Illustrated edition of ANTR. It looks rather empty. Do you know of any larger clearer photographs that might enable a head count [and perhaps a gender count]?
As a point of interest what is said to be boat 12, also looks rather empty. Certainly nothing near the 75 said by some to have onboard.
Hello again, Lester. Regarding boat No 12, my theory is;
a) there were some 28 people in it when lowered. It may have been the first of the four aft port boats to be lowered.
b) they got three crewmen from boat D, i e 31 after that transfer.
c) they got ten or twelve from boat 14, i e 43 or 45 after that transfer.
d) they got about 12 or 13 from boat B, i e 55 or 58 when they approached Carpathia.
The boat must have seemed pretty full, albeit there, theoretically, may have been half a dozen empty seats in it.
I don't know whether there exist better photographs of boat 14. I believe they carried about 15 people when they returned to the wreck, they received three or four from the sea and then eleven or twelve from boat A for a total of perhaps 30 when they reached the Carpathia. Again, just a theory.