Was Capt Smith lost in a daze during the sinking?

Arun: It is said that generals always fight the last war. Most of the preparations you outline would have fit Titanic’s scenario that night. However, suppose the damage was such that Titanic developed a severe list such that launching any lifeboats would have been all but impossible. I can keep giving examples of things nobody might have anticipated. After any disaster is over we can usually come up with a list of things that would have mitigated that disaster. But what about the one with circumstances you didn’t anticipate?
 
However, suppose the damage was such that Titanic developed a severe list such that launching any lifeboats would have been all but impossible.
The hypothetical scenario that I mentioned involved the Titanic colliding with the iceberg excatly the same way that it did and sustaining exactly the same damage, flooding in the same manner and so taking the aforementioned 2 hours and 41 minutes to sink. Absolutely no difference in that; but, I wondered what people thought could or would happen IF there had been enough lifeboats were all, the SOP involved a strong onus on health & safety, the crew well well trained and motivated accordingly and passengers clearly instructed to co-operate, like it would be in a modern large luxury ferry from a respected and reputable company.
 
Arun: I guess the problem for your hypothetical to happen is that there would have to have been a similar Titanic type event to bring about the measures you specify. The conventional wisdom of the day was that watertight subdivision would diminish the need for enough lifeboats for all and the procedures and crew to load and launch them expeditiously. Without such a previous disaster in mind we also have the reluctance of the passengers to leave the ship. One preceding event was the Hawke collision. That was the kind of damage that was anticipated. As I previously wrote, it is the unanticipated that is the main ingredient in a recipe for disaster.
 
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Britannic was designed to meet just that scenario, and go beyond it by considering a list with the ability of the gantry davits not blocked by funnels to crossfeed lifeboats. But it took Titanic to get there. It’s noteworthy that in a much more punishing situation that her designers did not envision her proportion of casualties remained much smaller.
 
Actually that's a good question. I have read that in various articles and heard it mentioned in video's I have watched over the years. But they just made the statements without providing references. I never saw any push back so I assumed it wasn't an issue. But we all know what assume means. A quick search provided a couple of places where I read that below.

"What he didn’t know was that the keel of each lifeboat had been reinforced with steel, and that the White Star Line, who owned the Titanic, had successfully tested the lifeboats on the davits at their maximum capacity of 65. The results of these tests were never passed to the Titanic’s crew, and they were not aware it would have been safe to fully load each boat with 65 people before lowering".

"Apparently unknown to many officers and crew, these boats were reinforced with steel beams in their keels to prevent buckling in the davits under a full load".
P.S... I will search more to see if I can find something from the actual period that states this.
Just some follow up on this lifeboat steel re-inforcement thing. I did some more looking around trying to see where this came from. The earliest reference I could find for this was an edit on Wiki by a user called Dallas Keffer. March 12 2015. A search of that name came up with Titanic artist and historian. I never heard of him. But I found articles he wrote going back to the 70's he wrote on Titanic when he was a lad. But I would like to make clear it doesn't mean they are the same person as on Wiki anybody can use any name to edit anything if they know the tricks. Cheers all.
 
The problem is that misinformation can take on a life of its own on the web. Somebody makes an erroneous statement which is repeated and so on. A proverb relating to Titanic that has served me well is “If it’s true it isn’t new and if it’s new it isn’t true.
 
A proverb relating to Titanic that has served me well is “If it’s true it isn’t new and if it’s new it isn’t true".
Accordig to that "proverb" any new finding from research is "not true" accrding to you. People like Sam Halpern, Tad Fitch, Bill Wormstedt, Brad Payne, Paul Lee, George Behe, Iaonnos Georgiou, Thomas Krom etc who have spent years doing diligent research might be interested in that opinion.

“If it’s true it isn’t new and if it’s new it isn’t true."
That kind of thinking reminds me of the title of a certain 1995 novelette by James Patrick Kelly.
 
The hypothetical scenario that I mentioned involved the Titanic colliding with the iceberg excatly the same way that it did and sustaining exactly the same damage, flooding in the same manner and so taking the aforementioned 2 hours and 41 minutes to sink. Absolutely no difference in that; but, I wondered what people thought could or would happen IF there had been enough lifeboats were all, the SOP involved a strong onus on health & safety, the crew well well trained and motivated accordingly and passengers clearly instructed to co-operate, like it would be in a modern large luxury ferry from a respected and reputable company.
I actually looked at that situation in my book, "Titanic: A Legal Perspective." Assuming that the Titanic had the full complement of 64 lifeboats, launching one boat every two minutes would be a physical impossibility, yet that is the time it would take. Filling every boat to capacity would require about 40 boats or launching one boat every five minutes; again, a physical impossibility.

The problem reverts back to an accident that was not even imagined.
 
I actually looked at that situation in my book, "Titanic: A Legal Perspective." Assuming that the Titanic had the full complement of 64 lifeboats, launching one boat every two minutes would be a physical impossibility, yet that is the time it would take. Filling every boat to capacity would require about 40 boats or launching one boat every five minutes; again, a physical impossibility.

The problem reverts back to an accident that was not even imagined.

I think that is a very important thing to emphasize; if Titanic had 64 lifeboats then 40 of them would have only been useful by cutting them loose and giving the survivors in the water something to cling to that might actually let them live the night. However… Based on the fate of the two collapsibles that’s a fairly useful strategy. Indeed, several hundred people might have survived the night.

This presages the realisation of how useful life rafts were in sinkings, also another point; that knowledge just wasn’t there yet. As a child I knew from about the age of eight what the canisters on the ferries I rode so often were; I probably could have launched one myself. A few quick thinking people could probably put a dozen in the water even if that boat was catastrophically rammed by a supertanker. Today merchant mariners have self launching lifeboats that can be clear of the ship in thirty seconds. These lessons were written in blood.
 
I actually looked at that situation in my book, "Titanic: A Legal Perspective." Assuming that the Titanic had the full complement of 64 lifeboats, launching one boat every two minutes would be a physical impossibility, yet that is the time it would take. Filling every boat to capacity would require about 40 boats or launching one boat every five minutes; again, a physical impossibility.
That is why I mentioned in a few posts that the 2 hours and 40 minutes that the Titanic took to sink can be 'long' or 'short' depending on the circumastances. For a ship that size and the number of people on it - even if the ship was only two-thirds filled to capacity - that timeframe was quite short.

I think that is a very important thing to emphasize; if Titanic had 64 lifeboats then 40 of them would have only been useful by cutting them loose and giving the survivors in the water something to cling to that might actually let them live the night.
Can you explain what you mean by "something to cling on to"? Under those freezing conditions, even with the body partially immersed in water, a person would have not survived for more than 30 minutes, evan that only if very fit. Furthermore, clinging on to something would mean that they were not swimming and that would accelerate effects of hypothermia. Survivor Augustus Weikman tried briefly resting on a floating coil of rope but quickly realized that would be dangerous.
 
That is why I mentioned in a few posts that the 2 hours and 40 minutes that the Titanic took to sink can be 'long' or 'short' depending on the circumastances. For a ship that size and the number of people on it - even if the ship was only two-thirds filled to capacity - that timeframe was quite short.


Can you explain what you mean by "something to cling on to"? Under those freezing conditions, even with the body partially immersed in water, a person would have not survived for more than 30 minutes, evan that only if very fit. Furthermore, clinging on to something would mean that they were not swimming and that would accelerate effects of hypothermia. Survivor Augustus Weikman tried briefly resting on a floating coil of rope but quickly realized that would be dangerous.
“Cling” was meant very colloquially in this case. The number of different ways someone can survive on an overturned or waterlogged lifeboat is numerous. So are the ways you can die. I cannot possibly provide any more detailed description because that entire scenario would be far too chaotic.
 
The number of different ways someone can survive on an overturned or waterlogged lifeboat is numerous
Well, that's not a scientific explanation and the two modes are completely different. Those who survived on Collapible B were precariously balanced, freezing but out of continued exposure to the water once they were on board. Moreover, Collapsible B overturned accidentally when it was pushed down by Lightoller & his gang from top of the Officers' Quarters. The crew could not have done that deliberately.

Collapsible A probably had 17 to 18 people inside it at some stage and at least as many clinging onto its sides but unable to haul themselves on board. Of those inside, around 7 died within a few hours including Eric Lindell, Thomson Beattie, Arthur O'Keefe and at least 4 others including an unnamed fireman. None of those who clung onto the sides, which included Elin Lindell and perhaps Edith Evans survived. Almsot all of those who did survive within the damaged and partially flooded lifeboat develped frostbite; it was severe in case of Edward Brown, Richard Williams and John Thompson, probably others too. The water within the lifeboat would have been marginally less cold than the sea because of the effects of the body warmth of the occupants.
 
That is why I mentioned in a few posts that the 2 hours and 40 minutes that the Titanic took to sink can be 'long' or 'short' depending on the circumastances. For a ship that size and the number of people on it - even if the ship was only two-thirds filled to capacity - that timeframe was quite short.


Can you explain what you mean by "something to cling on to"? Under those freezing conditions, even with the body partially immersed in water, a person would have not survived for more than 30 minutes, evan that only if very fit. Furthermore, clinging on to something would mean that they were not swimming and that would accelerate effects of hypothermia. Survivor Augustus Weikman tried briefly resting on a floating coil of rope but quickly realized that would be dangerous.
If they had more boats that were simply cut away I think it would have made a difference for some. Would it have been easy? No. Many would be in shock in just a few minutes. But I believe it would have made a difference for some. The boats were equipped with ropes around the side for people to hold onto and some could have managed to get aboard and possibly help others. There always seems to be some that will manage no matter what you throw at them. Within reason of course. By that I mean with a possibility for success.
s_s__titanic_lifeboat_no__4_at_mariners_museum_by_rlkitterman-db6epcv.jpg
 
I’ve seen a few wonderfully written articles as well as various claims written by historians that go back and forth on what would have happened if the Titanic carried enough lifeboats for the 2208 people she was carrying during her maiden voyage, however the general consensus is mixed.

Historians such as Charles Haas, the late Jack Eaton and I believe Park Stephenson too (correct me if I am wrong on the later however) offer a pessimistic view that more lifeboats would have gotten into the way into the evacuation.

Historians such as Dr. Paul Lee and George Behe show more optimistic views on that if the deck crew was properly trained with a max capacity of lifeboats on deck they could clear 16 lifeboats on the second class promenade in 1 hour and 15 minutes, saving 780 people if filled to the max capacity.

My views on the matter are somewhat in-between of this debate as I believe factors would come into play that were either nonexistent on the Titanic or actions that would depend on orders given out as well if certain situations would come to play or not if there were lifeboats for everyone on-board. This includes:

*1 The rousing of the passengers in all three classes. Both in terms of speed, how effective it’s being done as well as offering directions. Passengers on the Titanic, unlike on ships after the disaster, didn’t had any emergency stations assigned and since there was no passenger lifeboat drill (the one often cited of being canceled was only for crewmembers) directions would have been important. As shown with the occupants of lifeboat number 4 some directions were quite vague that fateful night.
*2 The behavior and willingness of the passengers to board a lifeboat in the middle of the North Atlantic on a cold night instead of staying on a safe, warm, well lit vessel were even the band is still playing cheerful tunes. Especially with the first lifeboats in first class there seemed to be a lot of indifference in to board a lifeboat at the early stages of the evacuation.
*3 The training of the deck crew. Practice makes perfect after all, on the Titanic the order to uncover the lifeboats was given shortly before midnight, with chief officer Wilde ordering quatermaster Olliver to tell boatswain Nichols to start uncovering the lifeboats with the order to swing them out given slightly over 15 minutes later when captain Smith returned from his second damage inspection (based on some evidence it isn’t out of the question that he already knew the chance was likely the ship wouldn’t survive the night, he only didn’t knew for how long). Imagine 32, 48 or 64 lifeboats being prepared in the alternative timeline with a deck crew of 66 men, 36 of them being seamen (34 able bodied, 2 ordinary seamen).
*4 How the officers would have filled the lifeboats. Most of Titanic’s lifeboats were lowered without filling them to their certificated maximum capacity, however there are of-course reasons behind this. From orders to fill the lifeboats from gangway doors to the fear that if a lifeboat is filled to their maximum capacity that the Welin Quadrant davits might failed them during the lowering, potentially killing all occupants (three of the four surviving officers, these being Lightoller, Pitman and Lowe, expressed that the lowering capacity wasn’t the same as the certificated floating capacity). As Bob wrote in an excellent article their fears weren’t misplaced, and in March 1913 some of the arms of a Welin quadrant davit did fail on the Olympic under Board Of Trade supervision (by the same surveyor who oversaw the construction of the Titanic, Francis Charruters). With this in mind I believe that filled the lifeboats to their proper capacity in this scenario would be unlikely.
*5 The timing when the rules and regulations, and with that the training of the deck crew to work with the number of lifeboat, would be implemented on the Olympic class liners and other White Star Liners as well as if this training by the Board Of Trade is provided on all ships on which the deck crew previously server.

I believe these five points would be the key factor in terms of an evacuation in that scenario would be successful or not. In these scenarios we always go out on the positive pieces of a puzzle to fall into place, however unfortunately there are never ideal situations in emergencies, let alone disaster. With how it went that fateful night I am a bit more pessimistic of that everyone could be saved or not.

The 1496 lives lost on that fateful night played a role to assure nearly all the points above were implemented world wide, and saved thousands of lives.
 
Well, that's not a scientific explanation and the two modes are completely different. Those who survived on Collapible B were precariously balanced, freezing but out of continued exposure to the water once they were on board. Moreover, Collapsible B overturned accidentally when it was pushed down by Lightoller & his gang from top of the Officers' Quarters. The crew could not have done that deliberately.

Collapsible A probably had 17 to 18 people inside it at some stage and at least as many clinging onto its sides but unable to haul themselves on board. Of those inside, around 7 died within a few hours including Eric Lindell, Thomson Beattie, Arthur O'Keefe and at least 4 others including an unnamed fireman. None of those who clung onto the sides, which included Elin Lindell and perhaps Edith Evans survived. Almsot all of those who did survive within the damaged and partially flooded lifeboat develped frostbite; it was severe in case of Edward Brown, Richard Williams and John Thompson, probably others too. The water within the lifeboat would have been marginally less cold than the sea because of the effects of the body warmth of the occupants.

A very pessimistic take with 40 boats at essentially random positions floating waterlogged or overturned would, based on past shipwrecks, probably have saved 150-200 people, so rather more pessimistic than simply duplicating those figures. Those are still lives saved, of course, which is why rafts are so important. I’d encourage someone else to work this out in more detail.
 
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