Was Capt Smith lost in a daze during the sinking?

[Michael H. Standart]

>>but I would ask who was expected to man the lifeboats?<<

Richard, they never expected to need them for any purpose except to ferry passengers and crew from a distressed vessel to a rescue vessel and in this sense, it was expected that crew from the rescue vessel would help out with boats and trained crew of their own. The distressed vessel would thus...as expected...act as her own lifeboat until such time as rescue could be had. It seemed to work well enough in the Republic Vs. Florida incident so in the eyes of the entire shipping community, why shouldn't it keep on working?

They found out why, but they were also the ones on the bottom edge of the learning curve. We have the advantage of hindsight which is 20/20. All they had to work with was whatever a vivid imagination and foresight would offer, and foresight is notoriously flawed.

>>Titanic had a small deck crew but plenty of other personnel who should have been assigned to a lifeboat as part of the disaster procedures.<<

And how many of these people actually knew what they were doing? Better take a look at the crew list befor answering that and be mindful of what was expected of people in various positions back then. The largest preportion of crew were the engineers and the hotel staff, none of who were expected to know the first thing about even the most basic seamanship.

>>But, Smith was confident in the technology and his abilities and those of his officers and crew. So I guess he thought that he didn’t need to bother.<<

Assumes facts not in evidence. We have no way of knowing what Captain Smith was thinking and he had to make do with what he had under the working conditions and agreements in force at the time. He may well have had plenty of concerns over things he didn't like but one doesn't say things like "Dear Employer, you're doing something grandly stupid and negligent in regards the lifeboats and crew training that's going to get people killed" in public. That would achieve nothing other then ending up unemployed himself.

 

[Erik Wood]

In general it is best to have seaman man the boats when possible. They should have good with an oar and the one in charge should have some basic knowledge of navigation.

Someone here...I don't recall who...and I don't believe they are apart of the conversation..once informed me that the contracted personnel i.e. waiters, hair dressers and the like where given training in such areas. Of which of course I agreed. However, as an officer who would you rather place in charge of a boat.. a trained sailor or a crash course trained sailor.

Today ALL of the actual boats are manned and lowered by trained personnel. This is part of most companies regulation. The rafts however are first come first serve.

 

[Richard Otter]

I can see that I will have to yield to far better knowledge and experience on the subject of crewing lifeboats past and present. Am I right that no lifeboat drills took place on the Titanic? Even the extremely basic type detailed in a previous post?

My comments about Smith having too much faith in his ship are based in part on the quote I know he made somewhere, I think it was along the lines of "I cannot imagine any condition which would cause a ship to founder . . .Modern shipbuilding has gone beyond that." This wasn’t just a failing with the captain as probably everyone at the time believed in the technological answer (a bit like we do today actually).

So with the example of the events like the Republic and his attitude to the ship under his feet, the lifeboat procedures would not have been at the top of his list of things to consider. He was the captain, so I still hold him responsible for this.

 

[Michael H. Standart]

>>Am I right that no lifeboat drills took place on the Titanic? Even the extremely basic type detailed in a previous post?<<

As I understand it, the boats themselves were tested in Belfast and if I recall correctly, they did some work with them in Southampton. (I may be mistaken about that one.) That's about it.

>>My comments about Smith having too much faith in his ship are based in part on the quote I know he made somewhere, I think it was along the lines of "I cannot imagine any condition which would cause a ship to founder . . .Modern shipbuilding has gone beyond that." <<

Indeed he did say that...notably to the press. He may have even believed it to a point, but we don't know that as a fact. Since he had been involved in a few minor accidents, I don't think he had any illusions that technology was really much of a panacea and he couldn't help but know about any number of sinkings, especially the Republic. It looks to me like he was more or less presenting the company line. I don't think it likely that he believed it, but he would hardly be expected to rattle off the whole "1001 Ways To Get Dead On Ships And At Sea" laundry list when the goal was to sell cabins, not scare off the traveling public.

>>He was the captain, so I still hold him responsible for this.<<

I wouldn't disagree with that either and I don't think any mariner would. He was the Captain and everything that happened under his command...good or bad...was his responsibility. He was also very much a product of his times, attitudes, expectations, obligations and all, and lived his life that way. It would be wise to keep that in mind befor jumping on the "Who Do We Blame" bandagon, and also be mindful of the fact that he didn't have omnipotant control over everything. All he had were the resources at hand and his understanding of how best to use them.

 

[David G. Brown]

The whole concept of "lifeboat drills" is temporocentric and out of context with Titanic. In small words, such drills are a modern approach born out of the experience of Titanic. It is a breach of logic to apply the concept to the event that brought it into being.

What sort of drills could have been performed on a ship with only half enough boats? The able seamen had the skills to lauch boats--proven during the evacuation. The rest of the "crew" (mostly coal or porridge slingers) would have filled the boats nearly to capacity. A drill involving the totality of White Star employees would have served no purpose other than to convince passengers there were no boats for them.

And, what about a passenger-only drill? Once again, the point would have become obvious about the lack of lifeboat space.

Any sort of lifeboat drills in the modern sense would have been counter-productive. The paid employees could not be given to understand they had first call on lifeboat seats. Can you imagine the public outcry if 80% or more of the survivors had been crew?

And, what would you have done if you had been a passenger who learned during a drill that there was no lifeboat seat for you? With the ship sinking would you have meekly stood back in the crowd of those selected to die? Or, would your instict (and right) to survive have goaded you into action? If one person acts, so do 1,100 and the result is defined as "panic."

Captain Smith undoubtedly ruminated these same thoughts. In the end he chose the only possible course of action given the reality of 20 boats, 1,100 seats, and 2,200 people. Drills were superfluous and probably counter-productive. So, for safety's sake--to prevent riots if nothing else--it was best to avoid the whole issue. It was not the most comfortable decision, even in the world of 1912, but it was one thrust upon him by circumstances.

Looking back, it is easy to see how more boats and better trained hotel staff (some being trained in lifeboats) would have made an obvious difference in the outcome of Titanic. But, this knowledge which those of us living today have gained through the sacrifice of some 1,500 souls cannot be used as a reason to condemn Smith or his crew for not holding boat drills, etc.

Arguments that drills would have helped are also built upon an assumption of modern communications. Titanic was huge, but it relied upon the same internal communications system as ships had for eons-- shouted commands and word passed by runners. There was no public address system which would have allowed Captain Smith to address the passengers. Nor did the officers have walkie-talkies as today to maintian instant communications among themselves and with the captain. Knowlege at boat #15 was unavailable at boat #8. It is easy to forget this simple fact when you have a chart of lifeboat launching times in front of you.

Under the circumstances of the case, and the state of knowledge at the time, the Titanic crew peformed remarkably well. At the instant the ship began to sink 50% of those aboard were automatically in the "dead" category. There was no way to save more than half of the souls aboard. So, it is only fair to discuss the crew's record in saving a maximum potential number of people equal to the roughly 1,100 seats in the lifeboats. Of the number who might have survived, the crew actually saved about 65% while working in the dark on the tipping deck of a ship that was not designed to allow for a rapid evacuation of passengers. That's a pretty good (not great, just pretty good) accomplishment.

-- David G. Brown

 

[Erik Wood]

Another tid bit of information. If you read NTSB reports you will note that of the passengers polled after an accident occurs where some sort of emergency instructions are given, well over 60% of those contacted say that prior to the instruction (due to the event) they had little or no training before that time and found it difficult to follow those instructions.

Keep in mind that ALL of these instructions are gone over during the boat drill and prior to that the life jacket drill held in muster stations. Locations of exits are clearly marked and routes to follow during emergencies are gone over. EVERY passenger must attend these drills as required by law. Yet most of them don't pay attnetion (something similar occurs on airplanes) and so when the bolts go flying things fall apart. Ocean travel is dangerous and always has been. There is no way to prepare non sailors for an emergency adequately enough.

 

[Michael H. Standart]

>>There is no way to prepare non sailors for an emergency adequately enough.<<

Indeed. Training qualified sailors is a time consuming task in itself and comes after a long process of education, training and on the job experience gained over months and even years of time. Passengers do not attend maratime acadamies nor do they undergo any of the training or certification processes that would be expected of even the humblest able bodied seamen. The only qualification a passenger needs to get a berth is money in his hand or a valid credit card.

>>EVERY passenger must attend these drills as required by law. Yet most of them don't pay attnetion (something similar occurs on airplanes) and so when the bolts go flying things fall apart.<<

Quite right, unfortunately. I've seen passengers on aircraft literally sleep through the safety instructions given by the flight attendant and few of them ever bother to read the card in the seat pocket in front of them which details evacuation and emergency proceedures. I read the thing every time and if I'm on a ship, one of the first things I look for are ways out, but this is part and parcel of my own training and experience. I do it automatically. I may never need it, but if I do, I won't have time to read any cards in front of me.

The grabber is that a lot of aviation and maritime accidents are quite survivable, but when you have a lot of people who sleep through even the most rudimentary drills and who don't read the "How To" literature, things get ugly when the caca doodoo hits the windmill, and these are the people who go home in a pine box!

It's not a pretty picture, but it's reality.

 

[Denise A. Hunyadi]

"...these are the people who go home in a pine box!"

Or, if they somehow survive, they are the people who immediately visit the nearest attorney. ;-)

As my John can verify, I never board a vessel where I don't first start looking for exits and life vests! I don't even go to the movie theater without finding where all the exit doors are--just something I've always felt a need to do. But I am certainly in the minority on that--the general public often dismisses/ignores the most important instructions when traveling by common carrier. As the old saying goes, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink".

Denise

 

[Yuri Singleton]

Were there any guards posted to keep wandering passengers off the bridge? I think there were some small handrails transecting the boat deck just forward of the 1st class entrance, but what about the stairs leading from A deck up to the bridge area?

My question being, was the Captain trying to keep himself isolated from the passengers? The old, "ask me no questions, I tell you no lies" policy. In the '97 movie, we see Captain Smith portrayed as being on the boat deck in proximity to the passengers. I'm not sure I buy that portrayal because I would guess that any passengers near him would surely swarm around him barraging him with questions and requests of all kinds.

Wouldn't it make sense for the Captain to stay seperated from the crowds on the boat decks during the evacuation? This could be accomplished by either placing guards on both sides of the bridge enclosure, and barracading the stairs to A deck, while Smith remained inside the wheel house/chart room/officers quarters area.

Yet I'm not aware of any such guards, or attempts to enforce security around the bridge. So what's the story on Titanic's bridge security and specifically security for the Captain. I ask this because his absence from public visibility during the evacuation could be confused with incapacity or command breakdown.

Thoughts?

Yuri

 

[Samuel Halpern]

Part of the problem is that some of these drills and announcements are presented as something that is being done because it is a requirement, not that they ever expect you to actually go through with it. They also avoid telling passengers some key information like should the oxygen masks drop while you are in a plane at 30,000 ft that you have less than 30 seconds to get the mask on before you pass out.

 

[David G. Brown]

Yuri -- I can't see anything like the a modern barrier that prevented people from wandering onto the bridge. In 1912 people in general were better behaved in terms of not going where they weren't supposed to be. The modern barriers have grown as a response to the "everything is about me" self-centered and egotistical modern mentality.

Smith seemes to have been in a variety of locations as required during the sinking. I don't think he "hid out" for any reason. Still, as the night went on he was constrained from making a public spectacle of himself. His actions would have been taken all out of context by the crowd. Smith could not have exhorted passengers into one boat without taking a big chance that it would have instituded a rush for all remaining boats.

As Captain Erik will undoubtedly attest, captains learn early never to run on deck no matter what the emergency (including personal plumbing problems) because someone will assume that disaster is occurring.

-- David G. Brown

 

[Michael H. Standart]

>>Or, if they somehow survive, they are the people who immediately visit the nearest attorney. ;-)<<

Oh brother! Ain't that the truth!

 

[Bill Wormstedt]

Smith was spotted at a number of lifeboats that night - 8,2,6, 7 and D. Though he was not spotted at the aft boats, it is obvious that he was out among the passengers at least part of the time.

 

[Erik Wood]

Captain Smith was probably out and about, at times it was probably best for him to deliver messages or orders directly then via runner, also a visual inspection of things (damage or otherwise) allows him a good understanding of what is going on and how to handle it.

This however is dangerous, for the reasons someone mentioned, but also because the sight of the ships Captain at a lifeboat can create a panic. Whether he is seen helping or talking. In some situations the Captain is better not to be seen.

As to running, any officer but especially the master in a passenger fleet (and the Royal Navy) are taught not to run. I don't care if your rear is on fire...you don't run. It shows that you are out of control, and gives the impression that the situation is out of your ability. Good firemen are taught the same thing. Running or an emergent impression can cause panic. Cool, calm decisive leadership. I have gotten a little excited in years past over things. The same can't be said now days however.

 

[Noel F. Jones]

"As to running, any officer but especially the master in a passenger fleet (and the Royal Navy) are taught not to run."

If you see me running, you'd better run too!

Noel