Was Capt Smith lost in a daze during the sinking?

[Michael H. Standart]

>>If you see me running, you'd better run too!<<

Kind of reminds me of a T-Shirt I saw an explosive ordnance disposal guy wearing which read "If you see me running, try to keep up!"

 

[Yuri Singleton]

So what message did it send when Capt. Smith dove into the water?

 

[Erik Wood]

I don't know that we have any strong evidence to say he did.

 

[Michael H. Standart]

>>So what message did it send when Capt. Smith dove into the water?<<

By the time it came to that, the RMS Titanic Express Elevator was already speeding her way to the bottom of the Atlantic. Every man for himself and all that. Nobody would have cared at this point what the Captain was up to.

 

[Yuri Singleton]

Bride's sworn testimony is the evidence I'm drawing from regarding Capt. Smith's diving overboard. How strong is that testimony? Bride maintained his statement and remained consistent in both US and British inquiries. He seems credible to me. As credible as any others I believe.

And if he did jump/dive off the deck into the sea, then I wonder if it was intended to be seen, and in being seen, make it clear to all around that duty was complete and now it was indeed time to see to yourself. Actions in this case most certainly speaking louder than words.

Yuri

 

[Roy Kristiansen]

(I thought it might be best to get this out of the way of the aft boiler room discussion.)

>>But why has this particular one, "Catatonic," or "Zombie" Smith, become so entrenched? I've heard it endorsed from novices all the way up to the sound bites of a few historians who surely should know better.<<

>>A good question, and I'm not sure I can answer that. Perhaps there's a bit of romanticism involved. All I know for sure is that once these things become entrenched, they're very difficult to root out.<<

Like the "mild" 1912 winter, perhaps? I think we can blame "Lights" for that one.

>>I thought that the "catatonic Smith" legend was started by eyewitnesses, that several people saw him in that state that night. Guess I was wrong!<<

Tammy, my feeling is it was started by some historian who noticed that Smith was absent from the boat deck at certain times. Also, that Lightoller went to him for support when he felt Wilde was becoming a bottleneck. Why wasn't Smith barking out orders?? Well, he *must* have been in "shock." ...That sort of thing. And that's the way he was pictured in Cameron's film, by an actor (Hill) who is marvelous at playing world-weary characters.

But when you start compiling survivors' memories, you find Smith was here, there, everywhere, and anything but an inactive participant. Whatever pangs he may have been feeling inside, he didn't let them get to him while there was still work to be done.

[Moderator's Note: This message, originally posted to a new thread, has been moved to this pre-existing one addressing the same subject. MAB]

 

[Caroline Mendes Ferreira]

Captain Edward John Smith master in shock

On the night of the shipwreck Thomas Andrews did a great important role by helping more women and children in the lifeboats. Actually this would be the captain would have to make it clear that the captain also allowed only women and children because I have a lot of research says that the captain was in shock or perhaps incredulous. does he even got that state. You may even disagree with me Thomas Andrews bad man and a great help in that moment of anguish and suffering.

Bad maybe even the captain has been in shock because he never believed that the ship would sink, imagine that time his mind was on his wife and daughter, no one else saw the captain around.

[Moderator's note: This message was originally a separate thread, but has been added to this existing thread addressing the same subject. MAB]

 

[Michael H. Standart]

>>Bad maybe even the captain has been in shock because he never believed that the ship would sink, imagine that time his mind was on his wife and daughter, no one else saw the captain around.<<

That's a nice myth Caroline. The problem with that is that the preponderance of the evidence which is available in the inquiry transcripts doesn't support it.

You don't have to take my word for it. The minutes of testimony and evidence for both investigations can be accessed at TIP | United States Senate Inquiry

 

[Caroline Mendes Ferreira]

I also have to agree because Captain Smith was in shock has not done much to help the night of the shipwreck as shown in the film by James Cameron. Now the officers he gave himself the best

 

[Michael H. Standart]

>>I also have to agree because Captain Smith was in shock has not done much to help the night of the shipwreck as shown in the film by James Cameron.<<

Caroline, please pay very close attention to what I actually said: "That's a nice myth Caroline."

The reason I said it was a myth is because the available evidence does not support the claim that Captain Smith was in shock.

Point of order: Cameron's Titanic, love it or lump it was a work of Hollywood fiction. It is useless as a historical reference.

 

[Justin Litke]

Did Captain Smith have to be told multiple times by Andrews that Titanic was sinking before getting into action?

 

[Arun Vajpey]

Did Captain Smith have to be told multiple times by Andrews that Titanic was sinking before getting into action?

That discussion would have been in private for the first time and since both those gentlemen died in the sinking, no one will ever know for sure. But IMO, the Captain probably asked Andrews something like "are you certain?" or something similar the first time the latter said that the Titanic was doomed; that would have been normal human reaction. But once Andrews clearly explained the mechanisms involved, the Captain would have concentrated on sending out distress calls and issuing necessary orders to the crew.

 

[Michael H. Standart]

Did Captain Smith have to be told multiple times by Andrews that Titanic was sinking before getting into action?

Short version: No he didn't. A bit more in depth: Go to the first page of this thread to see David Brown's response which, in my opinion, summed up the situation very nicely. Captain Smith was not in a daze. He understood very well what was going on, worked out a plan of action, and responded proactively as the situation changed.
What he did not do was micromanage.

 

[Thomas Krom]

Did Captain Smith have to be told multiple times by Andrews that Titanic was sinking before getting into action?

If one looks at captain Smith his actions during the sinking you can see he was already very active with orders before he even knew how long the ship had.

• Unlike often claimed in the media the order to uncover the lifeboats were given by both captain Smith and chief officer Wilde at around 12:00, 25 minutes before Thomas Andrews Jr gave his estimate how long the ship had. Captain Smith just returned from his first damage inspection at that time, during this inspection he didn’t saw any flooding for himself yet.
• Captain Smith ordered quartermaster Olliver to give chief engineer Bell a note, sadly the content of this this note is unknown but it is possible that it was an order relating to the bilge and ballast pumps.
• After fourth officer Boxhall informed captain Smith about the flooding in the mail room on the orlop deck under the post office he went out on his second damage inspection where he met up with Thomas Andrews Jr again, who was making his way up at the time (he gave boatswain Nichols, who didn’t survive as well, an estimate that the ship had about half a hour at this time). Thomas Andrews Jr advised captain Smith to take a look for himself, where they ultimately bumped into chief purser McElroy, a postal clerk and Dr. O’Loughlin. The group went below to see the flooding for themselves and at around 12:10 captain Smith, purser McElroy and Thomas Andrews Jr were seen on E-deck at the small stairwell which leads to the squash court, post office and first class baggage room (This stairwell is located in the first class corridor on the starboard side). Thomas Andrews Jr remarked “Well, three have gone already captain.” Referring to the first three cargo holds, which at the time were truly a lost case with the water already nearing E-deck. Considering the Olympic class liners wasn’t able to stay afloat with this damage he presumably told him that the ship would be unable to stay afloat with this rate of flooding, but he didn’t knew how long she would have at the time. Captain Smith and Purser McElroy left Thomas Andrews Jr below to their calculations, met up again with Dr. O’Loughlin and went to Mr. Ismay, who at the time was awaiting news in his sitting room which was B-52 in the Louis XIV style (Mr. Ismay stayed here after he was told by captain Smith if he thought the ship was seriously damaged). It was overheard by first class stewardess Jane Kate Coulson Gold that captain Smith said: “We had better get the boats out.” To Mr. Ismay and it appeared that the news captain Smith told Mr. Ismay was rather shocking since Mr. Ismay was described as looking as pail as a white night shirt. All of them put on their brave faces to avoid people panicking. It is false that Mr. Ismay was ever present at the conversation that happened later where Thomas Andrews Jr gave the ship his estimate.
• It is believed by 12:15 captain Smith went to the Marconi room for the first time and told senior wireless operator Phillips and junior wireless operator Bride to be prepared to send a distress call, but only to send it out when he would tell them to send it out.
• At 12:22 Thomas Andrews Jr was seen going up the forward Louis XIV staircase with three to two steps at the time to report his calculation to captain Smith by William Sloper, Dorothy Gibson and Anna Warren. At around 12:25 Thomas Andrews Jr told captain Smith he gave her a hour to a hour and a half from that point on to stay afloat. Captain Smith went to the Marconi room immediately and at around 12:26 he told them: “Send the call for assistance.” And “The regulation call for help. Just that.”. It is believed he told second officer Lightoller prior to hearing the estimate from Thomas Andrews Jr to: “put the women and children in and lower away.”

So for the short answer, he was already very active before he was given the estimate by Thomas Andrews Jr.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

I have a feeling that the mistaken assumption that Captain Smith was "inactive", "ineffective" or "in a daze" etc arose from the fact that a lot of the people whom he interacted with or issued orders to themselves died in the sinking. This incuded the likes of Thomas Andrews, Wilde, Murdoch, Moody, McElroy and probably Bell and Nichols; of those who survived, only Lightoller, who remained on board the ship till the very end, Boxhall perhaps and Ismay could have testified about the Captain's actions. Lightoller certainly did so and to some extent Boxhall, but the latter would have been busy with the rockets before leaving on board Lifeboat #2. Pitman left quite early on Lifeboat #5 and Lowe, the last Officer to arrive on the bridge after the collision, spent time working with Murdoch before going to the port side aft to join Moody and eventually leave on Lifeboat #14.

What I am saying is that the way the sequence of events transpired, a lot of people who interacted with Captain Smith after the collision themselves died and so could not have testified or spoken to anyone about him. Most of the others were busy their allocated tasks once the orders were given. This created the false impression that the Captain was somehow ineffective during the sinking because not many people were able to mention what he was or was not doing. Still, a reasonable picture can be formed by the testimonies of Lightoller, Boxhall, Lowe, Bride etc to conjecture that Captain Smith indeed had the situation under control.