Water in the Aft Well Deck


Kyle Naber

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This has always confused me until maybe now. I have given the following quote some thought:

"She seemed to raise once as though she was going to take a violent dive, but sort of checked, as though she had scooped the water up and had leveled herself. She then seemed to settle very, very quiet, until the last, when she rose up, and she seemed to stand 20 seconds, stern in that position [indicating], and then she went down with an awful grating, like a small boat running off a shingley beach."
— Bedroom Steward Henry Samuel Etches

The newest simulations show the stern violently being thrown over to port after the breakup which is consistent with survivor accounts. But what I've always wondered is if water was really seen on the port side of the poop and well deck as seen in the 2012 rendering:

(1:15)

Can Etches's account be interpreted as a pool of water formed in the well as the stern settled, water crashed onto the decks and was scooped up as the stern rose for a second time? I'm sorry if this is difficult to understand.
 

Harland Duzen

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Provided the force of the water didn't rip off the Well-deck's doors making it pour out the sides, it' plausible, that could have happened. Either way, that would have been rather gruesome for anyone then in the Aft well-deck...
 
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Kyle Naber

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A similar effect on the settled port stern, perhaps:

IMG_7493.JPG
 
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Aaron_2016

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When the stern took a sudden lurch and threw everyone over, I imagine it looked similar to these videos.






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Harland Duzen

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The problem with all these virtual simulations of Titanic's sinking is that a) water glitches though everything and b) you get no idea of what waves / forces were displayed by the sinking in general.

Take the movement of water. While I don't know how Watertight Titanic's cabin walls were, I presume water would either trickle though gaps in the top or bottom or enter though the door.

A good example of this issue is Captain Smith staring at the flooded bridge in the 1997 film (Below).
Screen Shot 2017-08-08 at 22.35.30.png

It's dramatic and sad but I doubt it would have looked like this.

Given I presume the Bridge's windows and wing were built to withstand the elements and heavy rain, it seems unlikely the bridge would already be partially flooded like this since the water level is below the ship's railing (outlined in Red Below).
Screen Shot 2017-08-08 at 22.35.30 2.png

For the film, the set had been lowered and then re-raised from a previous sinking take and in reality, there would be a large puddle forming (not taking into account any lists) and upon the ship plunging down, water would pour down and rapidly fill the bridge before sloshing out the sides and splashing up the boat deck (as seen later in the film).
Screen Shot 2017-08-08 at 23.03.55.png

Until Computers can become strong enough to simulate trillions of water particles in a sinking Titanic simulation or we sink a scale model, this will keep getting overlooked.

Forgive me for going off topic, but I felt this needed to be mentioned.

Back to Topic!
 
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B-rad

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Could it be that water entered the bridge in the 1st pic with Smith via the stairwell seen in second pic and flowed forward. I have no way of checking angles as of now.
 
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Aaron_2016

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Survivors near the bridge described a heavy list port as the sea approached the boat deck. It might have looked similar to this mirrored picture of the Lusitania.



Lusitania01a.PNG



It is unclear if the entire ship was intact or already broken or in the process of breaking, but I think the stern section may have acted differently. The bow section was listing, whereas the stern section (if broken) was keeling over instead of listing over, as it lost buoyancy before going down.

Curious if those near the stern also felt the strong list to port before she broke? Perhaps the ship was bending, with the bow twisting over to port while the stern was pulling back on a level keel. The stresses from both ends pulling in opposite directions might have broke the ship like pulling a Christmas cracker and she then tore herself apart.


What survivors witnessed near the bridge.


Mr Hardy
"The ship was then at a heavy list to port."

Harold Bride
"There was a heavy list to port."

William Mellors
"At this time it was almost impossible to walk on the deck without you (having) caught hold of something owing to the ship heeling right over."

Edward Brown
"The ship had a list to port."
Q - At the time that she put the bridge under water was the list considerable?
A - Yes.

Mr. Ismay
"The ship had quite a list to port."

Archibald Gracie
"...The great ship suddenly appeared to be about to topple over......There was a very palpable list to port as if the ship was about to topple over. "All passengers to the starboard side", was Lightoller's loud command, heard by all of us."

Samuel Hemming
"The Captain was there, and he sung out: "Everyone over to the starboard side, to keep the ship up as long as possible."

2nd officer Lightoller
"She had a pretty heavy list to port......She was taking a list over to port, the order was called, I think, by the chief officer. "Everyone on the starboard side to straighten her up," which I repeated.....I think the ship righted. When the order was given to the passengers to go to the starboard side. I am under the impression that a great many went over and the ship got a righting movement and maintained it."

Perhaps this righting movement was the ship breaking and the bow twisting back to a level keel, and the stern keeled heavily over to port?


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Harland Duzen

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Could it be that water entered the bridge in the 1st pic with Smith via the stairwell seen in second pic and flowed forward. I have no way of checking angles as of now.

Not really judging by the plans...

Screen Shot 2017-08-09 at 07.53.53.png


I really veered off topic. Sorry.

Back to Topic (on the Aft Well Deck flooding)!
 
Apr 26, 2017
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Survivors near the bridge described a heavy list port as the sea approached the boat deck.


I remember some one post something on Your first question

I can't remember who it was.
But do remember a survivor testimony. Explaining that near the end
It was almost impossible to free the aft lifeboats (the ones left) and them saying that. She righted herself then they were able to send them off.

If anyone has the orginal please poat it. I can clearly remember it i just cant think off the name. I d know the person who said it was male. (Sorry if this didn't help much )
 
This has always confused me until maybe now. I have given the following quote some thought:


The newest simulations show the stern violently being thrown over to port after the breakup which is consistent with survivor accounts. But what I've always wondered is if water was really seen on the port side of the poop and well deck as seen in the 2012 rendering:

Bear in mind that the turbulence of the water is not accounted for in those simulations.
 
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I've often wondered why the list was to the port when it was the starboard that hit the ice berg. Surely the starboard would normally have taken the weight first.
 

Harland Duzen

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It's generally thought (but not certain) that following Titanic's coal fire being put out on April 13th at 2PM, the Starboard bunker had been emptied of coal and fed into the boilers. Since the Port bunker had not suffered any fire and had not been emptied, this made the ship slightly unbalanced and gave her a small 2-3 degree list to Port.
 
Apr 26, 2017
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Continueing with what martin Tyne said . With the two-three degree list port this kept the ship generally level for some time following the collision. But as the water continuesly flowed from the starboard it of course eventually over powerd the port list. But before the ship could go to dangerously to starboard BR 5 began flooding saving the ship from toppling over to the right. However even though she remained on an even keel for sometime she eventually started rolling port.and of course you know Titanic sank with the port list (meaning she did not return)
There is an interesting point that came up.
That had the ship not had the pre-collision 2-3 list.
That following the collision. It is entirely possible the ship could have capsized within a hour.
Keep in mind that the first life boat left at 12:45 five minutes after an hour.
So you can see how horrific it would of been had she not already been listing .


A Titanic wreck with NO survivors. 2208 just disappear. Possibly there could be some debris. Like the officers maybe so wood. Deck chairs. Not much. It would have probably taken much longer to even figure out what had happened. And their would literally be no way to know anything that had happened.
Just keep that in thought
 
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Aaron_2016

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The sinking would be told thanks to the heroic efforts of the wireless operators who kept to their posts until the power had failed. Reminds me of the sinking of the Princess Victoria. As the ship turned over her wireless operator stayed at his post and kept sending messages hoping that rescue would come. Sadly he perished in the disaster with the captain and all of the officers. All of the women and children also perished. Wonder what Titanic's crew would have done if the Titanic had suffered a similar fate as the Princess Victoria?





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Apr 26, 2017
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I know this is a what if scenario
But I would like to Imagine
That when they felt her (the Titanic) continuesly listing starboard . They would have at least managed to send of the cutter and maybe L 7,3,5 if the started with the cutter first it would only make sense to send the boats around the cutter of as well. If they sent them full then I would say 65x4 = 260 if they filled these hypothetical boats to capacity. Also I don't know when but I am sure the Carpathia wasn't contacted until the evacuation was well under way. So thats something to take into context
 
It's generally thought (but not certain) that following Titanic's coal fire being put out on April 13th at 2PM, the Starboard bunker had been emptied of coal and fed into the boilers. Since the Port bunker had not suffered any fire and had not been emptied, this made the ship slightly unbalanced and gave her a small 2-3 degree list to Port.

Also bear in mind that it is possible that they opened the D-deck gangway on the port side. When that section of the ship sunk, water flooded the Reception Room area from the left causing the ship to shift balance.
 
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Aaron_2016

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Lightoller was questioned about his order to open the forward gangway door. He apparently was unaware the ship was going to sink head down.


Q - If the boat was down by the head, the opening of those doors on E deck in the forward part of the ship would open her very close to the water, would it not?
A - Yes.
Q - When you gave the order, had you got in mind that the ship was tending to go down by the head, or had not you yet noticed it?
A - I cannot say that I had noticed it particularly.
Q - Of course, you know now the water was rising up to E deck?
A - Yes, of course it was.
Q - Did the boatswain execute those orders?
A - That I could not say. He merely said “Aye, aye, sir,” and went off.
Q - .......As far as you know, were any of those gangway doors open at any time?
A - That I could not say. I do not think it likely, because it is most probable the boats lying off the ship would have noticed the gangway doors, had they succeeded in opening them.


I wonder if nobody noticed the doors were open because that deck was already below the waterline? Lightoller said in his book that he believed the men who were sent down to open the doors were probably engulfed by the water below decks and that is why they never returned to report to him that the doors were open. He may have carried the guilt of knowing he had sent those men to their deaths for the rest of his life. In regards to the stern keeling over to port after she broke. If the flooding of the forward gangway door was somehow connected to the keeling of the stern, then this would suggest that the ship flooded bodily and the water that was forward had travelled aft along the port side, so that when the ship broke the weight of water on the port side that had travelled aft would then keel the stern hard over to port. Then again, it could simply have been accelerated by the open portholes (assuming there were open portholes on the port side near the stern.)


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I always thought the stern keeling port was just the ship loosing balance.
Like after it finally tore away from the stern. I imagine she was wobbling.
I believe there is a survivor testimony to support the idea "she bobbed like a cork" after the final separation. And this unstable 450 foot length of ship simply toppled because she was unsupported and literally severed in half. But off course
It is more than likely the events previous to the breakup had Influence
On the direction the stern fell.
Such as
. Force of separation
. Did water travel aft or up
. Stress on the stern
.how long the bow actually remained connected to the stern
. And finally how much boyancy the stern had as of the break up. (This tied into number two because if the water traveled aft it would mean the stern wasn't actually 100% boyant
 

Rennette Marston

Rennette Marston
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Perhaps this righting movement was the ship breaking and the bow twisting back to a level keel, and the stern keeled heavily over to port?

Something like what's shown in these screenshots, I suppose?

1-png.png


2-2-png.png


In the second picture, the bow's port side lifts up after she twisted and broke free from the stern. Perhaps this is what some survivors meant when they said the Titanic's bow "resurfaced" or bobbed out of the water?

And maybe the bow resurfacing was actually the first funnel's tip bobbing up after it broke from its base? Just a thought.

funnel-3-png.png


funnel-4-png.png
 

Cam Houseman

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Something like what's shown in these screenshots, I suppose?

View attachment 49211

View attachment 49212

In the second picture, the bow's port side lifts up after she twisted and broke free from the stern. Perhaps this is what some survivors meant when they said the Titanic's bow "resurfaced" or bobbed out of the water?

And maybe the bow resurfacing was actually the first funnel's tip bobbing up after it broke from its base? Just a thought.

View attachment 49213

View attachment 49214
way off topic, but where did the first 2 images come from?
 

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