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Okay, this doesn't have anything to do with Titanic, but it does have to do with the water and has been the subject of underwater exploration, so I thought I'd share it, especially since there doesn't seem to be an existing thread on it.

What is your take on Nessie? Below is an interesting site sharing some objective thoughts on this phenomenon

http://www.spartechsoftware.com/dimensions/creatures/Lochness.htm


By the way, I wasn't sure where to put this, but it's always been a kind of a mystery, so I put it here. If it belongs somewhere else, may the moderators move it as necessary. All I ask is to let me know, hehe.

Take care, all!
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>>What is your take on Nessie?<<

I find it interesting that for all the purported sightings of this "monster" that not once has a clear photo ever been taken of it or remains of deceased creatures ever found. You may find http://www.skepdic.com/nessie.html to be of some interest, especially since it disposes of some of the assertions in that other website. Be sure to follow the links.
 

Will C. White

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To say absolutely that a "Nessie" does not exist is, I feel, a little imprudent. There are many things we don't yet know of in the deep, wet places of the Earth. Think of the Coelecanth, or the huge German Brown Trout that are rumored to live in Lake Tahoe.
 
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>>To say absolutely that a "Nessie" does not exist is, I feel, a little imprudent.<<

Not if careful and ongoing research and investigation demonstrates otherwise it isn't. With the Coelecanth we have hard evidence of the creature's on going existance because several examples have been caught. With Loch Ness, we have a very confined stretch of water with an extremely limited carrying capacity that couldn't possibly support a plesiosaur sized creature, much less hide one.

The loch has been carefully and painstakingly searched from one end to the other with towed underwater sleds and sonar and so far, not even so much as a bone from a deceased creature has been found.

If you want to know the real story behind "Nessie" then follow the money. There has been quite the lucrative tourist trade built up around this thing which involves everything from tourboat excursions to submarine rides going for up to $100 and hour in 1994. Last year, the trade brought $12.2 million to the region.

Follow the money. That's where the real story lies.
 

Jim Kalafus

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>To say absolutely that a "Nessie" does not exist is, I feel, a little imprudent.

Will, the negative column is a mile long. The positive column consists of....well....nothing, other than anecdotal evidence predominately gathered by people with a vested interest in maintaining the Nessie story.

>Think of the Coelecanth

A large fish, but by the standards of its day a pipsqueak and, so, well adapted to survive. It has a HUGE range.

Working against Nessie is that fact that by oceanic standards its range is miniscule. If anyone can explain how enough creatures roughly the size of...well...a city bus can survive in such a compact environment without the sort of congenital problems fostered by inbreeding, and without decimating its food supply billions of years ago, I'd like to hear it!

Loch Ness is simply too shallow to support a colony of Gigantism-period holdovers. A Pleiseosaur colony, adapted to TRUE deep water COULD conceivably exist~ 200 or 300 seventy foot long creatures spread out over hundreds of thousands of square miles of 10,000-29,000 foot deep water would be needles in a haystack. The same colony in a lake with a max depth of...what...600-900 feet, and only...what..200...300 miles long, would have starved itself out of existence eons before inbreeding killed them off.
 
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Wanted to put this under "Off Topic," but, for some reason, it is closed. Since this deals also with creatures of the deep, I have decided to post it here.

This is another interesting article about sharks. Apparently, several species are in danger of being wiped out, yet attacks are up. Take a look:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience/20080227/sc_livescience/sharksdeclinebutattacksrise

If so many shark species are in danger of being eliminated, a viable solution must be implemented to deter finning, which seems to be the main cause of the problem. The fact that such activity is lucrative suggests that this will likely not be overcome any time soon.

Inger might find this interesting, too, since she is into sharks.

Take care!
 
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>>The fact that such activity is lucrative suggests that this will likely not be overcome any time soon.<<

That's why a lot of poaching goes on. It pays and pays well. Whether it's for the horns of the White Rhino (because it's supposed to be a potant aphrodesiac...which in fact it really isn't) to ivory or ivory tusks from elephants if only because it looks good and exotic.

Shark's cartilage is alleged to have anti-cancer properties because of the erroneous beleif that sharks don't get cancer so there's another justification for you. The hell of it is that it's not illegal to hunt sharks.
 

Bob Godfrey

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>>it's supposed to be a potant aphrodesiac...which in fact it really isn't<<

Give it time, Mike. It might have a delayed effect. :)
 

Jim Kalafus

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>Give it time, Mike. It might have a delayed effect

And, as the commercials remind one, to avoid permanent damage if the White Rhino horn produces....results....that last for more than five hours seek a doctor's help. Although HOW you phrase your no doubt plaintive request, and how the doctor will resolve the problem is left unexplored by the adverts.

The world of quack aphrodisia is a broad, fascinating, and very weird one. Whether it is "Cologne With Musk" (which makes you irresistable to female civets~ the males of the species being what was tortured to produce musk back in the 1970s~ but which tend to make homo sapiens females dry-heave) or aspirin and CocaCola (which, as you'll recall was the Rohypnol of the 1950s) the common denominator is that they don't work.
 

Inger Sheil

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Sadly, finning is a practice I'm all too familiar with, Mark - I've been actively involved in campaigns against it for over a decade. I tremendously appreciate Chinese cuisine, but not shark fin soup - in which the taste is actually derived from the seasoning added. The fin is just texture. Once upon a time it was a luxury dish for the few, but with Asian affluence on the rise, this status dish is booming in popularity.

Finners can anchor off a tropical atoll and virtually wipe out its population of resident reef sharks in just a few days. In some areas, these animals are worth so much more alive to the local community for the dive tourism they bring in than for what the fins are worth, but try telling that to a subsistance fisherman who is struggling to earn enough money to feed his family. He'll never see the proceeds from the tourist trade, and he certainly can't afford to be sentimental about fish when he's struggling for himself and his family. Many of the poachers come from a long distance away, and have no vested interest in the local economy - illegal Indonesian shark fishermen have been caught a fair way down in Australian territorial waters. Any solution is going to have to involve local communities and making it in their best interests to participate in conservation.

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Shark's cartilage is alleged to have anti-cancer properties because of the erroneous beleif that sharks don't get cancer so there's another justification for you. The hell of it is that it's not illegal to hunt sharks.
I once got into a rather heated discussion with a health shop proprietor over the sale of shark cartilage. Of all quack medicine explotation, this is some of the worst - I saw it first hand with a terribly ill family member, riddled with cancer, who desperately wanted to live. Against her better rational judgement, she would try anything...and did. Our house was filled with the smells of various potions bubbling away on the stove, and of course she resorted to shark cartilage as well.

I read one "Health" magazine article that cheerfully extolled the virtues of this rubbish, noting that "not even the most emerald green of conservationists can find anything good to say about sharks...", but adding we'd finally found a good use for them - cartilage. My letter to the editor was perhaps too vitriolic for publication, although I did lay off tearing strips from the lazy, ignorant journalist long enough to provide cites from medical journals debunking the cartilage cancer-treating myths.

Never let anyone tell you "sharks don't get cancer" - that's just the first in a string of misinformation.

We are gradually moving towards protecting some species, but may already be too late.​
 
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>>Give it time, Mike. It might have a delayed effect. :)<<

(((Snort))) As tired as I am these days, the only reason anybody would give me something that would give me some....errrrr....wood....is to get the corpse to move under it's own power.

Great sport and merriment? Forget it!

>>The world of quack aphrodisia is a broad, fascinating, and very weird one.<<

And damned profitable too! The telly is loaded with commercials for this garbage, always with claims that they have been scientifically tested, but in the fine print at the bottom of the screen: "These claims have not been evaluated by the FDA."

>>Against her better rational judgement, she would try anything...and did.<<

And she died anyway, right? That's the real tragedy when you get down to it. It's understandable that people with hopelessly terminal illnesses would be willing to try something, anything to do something about it and all that really happens is that their bank account gets drained.

What makes it even more tragic is that people with treatable illnesses try these quack cures...which cure nothing...based on nothing more substantive then "beleif" and end up in a six foot deep hole in the ground when proven treatments could have either extended their lives and even cured the illness.

People often wonder what possible harm there could be in fallacious beliefs.

Well, the answer to that question is as close as the nearest graveyard. It's also reckoned in entire species that have either gone extinct or are well on the road to becoming extinct...like the white rhino...because of the mistaken belief that their body parts hold some sort of cure all.
 

Inger Sheil

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Oh yes - she died anyway. She was also trying legitimate medical techniques too, I might add - my mother, an RN, was relentless in her research on any possible physician or course of treatment that could prolong her sister's life or alleviate her pain. But she also tolerated - and even assisted her sister in purchasing - all the "Eastern" medicine that my aunt requested, and the outright rubbish like the cartilage. Maureen so desperately wanted to live that we all tolerated the quakery...seething all the while at any vulture who would peddle this crap to someone in pain and despair. It was an ethical dilema for me - did I protest the shark cartilage use with a very, very ill woman, who had cancer from the tumorus in her brain right down to her very bones? I don't know if it was moral or ethical cowardice, but I didn't raise the issue at all with her - but my hatred for quack treatments is now quite implacable.
 
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quote:

he certainly can't afford to be sentimental about fish when he's struggling for himself and his family.

At the same time, can you blame him? It's not necessarily as if he's killing out of malice, only honorably and admirably trying to feed his family. You can't always point the finger at the fishermen. They aren't the problem--those who boast the demand for the fish are!


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Any solution is going to have to involve local communities and making it in their best interests to participate in conservation.

Is that the best place to start, or should the solution be initiated on a global scale first?

The thing about problems like this is that if laws are mandated on the local level, the problem doesn't really go away; fishermen and those who want the fish will merely go where such activity is either practiced are not illegal. If such laws were established on a global scale, the guilty parties can go no place, despite demands. What about marine-life protection? I know there are such laws, although I am not really familiar with them.

While we're on the subject, Inger, I wanted to asked you about your perspective on the many unprovoked attacks on humans. Yes, the sharks are acting on their natural instincts, but that doesn't mean we can just sit back and say "Well, they are just feeding, so that's all right."

To be totally honest, Inger, I am scared to death of them, but I do respect them as life forms and recognize their right to survival. I support that, but I am adamant to the safety of all human beings as well.

I am not attacking you on this, only making an inquiry. You know sharks better than I do.


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Of all quack medicine exploitation . . . I read one "Health" magazine . . . but my hatred for quack treatments is now quite implacable.

I don't totally discount health remedies and cures. I have done some research online for some articles I wrote, and I have found that many specialists and physicians in various medical fields have written books on how Diabetes, for one, has a variety of natural cures, among them amino acids. I have also heard that Cancer already has a cure as well.

Has anyone ever seen any of Kevin Trudeau's programs? He claims to have done years of research on this and has two or more books out that supposedly share natural cures to virtually every disease in existence. He also insists that the drug companies know about these cures but push drugs on billions of unsuspecting people who believe that drugs are the only alternative. In the meantime, the drug companies get rich so they can pay off their stock holders, as mandated by law. I don't know if there is any truth in his assertions, but his arguments are persistent and the corruption seething on corporate levels and in government is not at all far-fetched or beyond reproach. His books are inexpensive and available in major book stores . . .

Still, to promote the "I-have-the-answers-to-solving-all-of-the-world's-medical-problems-right-her-in-this-book" ideal seems very hard to believe in a world where nothing comes by that easy . . . except a cash flow from many people who buy the book because they fall into the ideal. Yet Kevin insists that he does not keep any of the proceeds from his books.



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when proven treatments could have either extended their lives and even cured the illness.


and drained their pocket books. Medical treatments are not known for being cheap.

Unlikely cure, as drugs and most treatments merely alleviate pain and slow down the progression of said diseases. Again, it depends on the particular set of circumstances, I guess *shrugs*


By the way, I have wondered how Mr. Trudeau could have afforded those shiny rings and that watch he has worn on his shows. Perhaps he gets paid handsomely for his research.
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Oh my goodness, Kevin Trudeau. He's a topic for a whole discussion forum just by himself!

While I, myself, HAVE used a number of "natural" remedies to cure myself of various ills (and don't worry, I have NEVER used anything from a shark), some of the ideas Mr. Trudeau promotes are untested and open to question ~ nevermind the fact that he is indeed a convicted felon and con artist. Yeah, sure makes me trust what he says alright.

I AM, however, an advocate of proper amino acid use. It truly has done wonders for me, and also lifted a member of my family out of diagnosed clinical depression a few years ago without using prescription drugs. Julia Ross has written a couple of very interesting books on the subject.
 
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quote:

nevermind the fact that he is indeed a convicted felon and con artist.

Didn't know that, Jason. Of course, that would be one thing he'd not mention in any of his programs.


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Julia Ross has written a couple of very interesting books on the subject.

As said, I have seen synopses and discussions on many books written by specialists in the field who claim that natural cures are not beyond scientific or non-scientific reality. Shouldn't these people know? With so many medically trained people making similar claims, should there not be some truth to it?​
 
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Oh yes. Don't even get me started on Mr. Trudeau.
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I believe there is truth to many, but not all, "natural" medicines. After all, many prescription and non-prescription drugs are just refined, synthesized compounds found in nature anyway.

If you think about it, you know how you feel after you eat certain types of foods.

For a very quick example: Generally speaking, for most people, if you eat a big turkey dinner, you feel sleepy afterwards. Why? Partially because turkey contains higher amounts of tryptophan - a natural amino acid used by the body to create seratonin - a "happy chemical" (makes a person feel happy) and seratonin is converted into melatonin which is very important for sleep. This synthesis by the body is all clinically proven.

So having trouble sleeping? Try some melatonin or some 5-HTP (a natural tryptophan-like compound from which seratonin is also produced), or just eat some turkey. No doctor or prescription drugs needed! (obviously, a doctor should be consulted if you have a chronic condition, but even then, it wouldn't hurt to ask the doctor about melatonin and 5-HTP)
 
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quote:

For a very quick example: Generally speaking, for most people, if you eat a big turkey dinner, you feel sleepy afterwards.

Actually, yes. I've always thought it had to do with a full stomach, which, I suppose, is another factor involved in creating the 'sleepy' sensation that one feels after eating turkey. There have been many a Thanksgiving when I've felt like lying down and relaxing after dinner. How ideal, then, it is to eat turkey on the holiday--it would naturally get you to relax, which is called for on that particular holiday.
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Hey, Jason, did you take Chemistry as an undergrad?​
 
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Hi Mark! No, I didn't take chemistry in undergrad (high school instead). My dad is in the medical profession and consequently, when I was growing up, when he'd come home from the hospital, he'd share all kinds of info he and the other doctors would shoot the breeze about, which then both he and my mother subsequently researched and turned parts of into our daily lives.

One result of their research led to a ban on refined sugar at a young age (and this was before that was really popular). I used to covet things like sugar cereals, pop tarts, candy, etc., that all of my friends were allowed to have, but I wasn't. I resented that for many years.

Now, however, I have come to appreciate why my parents did what they did and I have taken healthy practices and being "health conscious" to an almost UNhealthy level now (ha ha) of my own accord. I think it's fascinating.

And it's not just about food, it's about exercise for the body and a healthy mind (and dare I say 'soul') as well. It also includes some supplementation and natural medicine (NOT to include shark parts) when necessary. It's a package deal.
 
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