What if all of the lifeboats went back after the ship foundered


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MAN AT THE BACK OF THR CROWD: Not that it would have made a LONG TERM difference, but there are two VERY chilling 9/11 accounts of what this fellow can do.

1) A woman testified that her husband had called to say goodbye to her. He was in an office a few floors above the fire, where a fight was raging...most of the people wanted to follow the course of laying on the floor for as long as possible and hoping that help would come. A hysterical minority wanted to smash the windows for fresh air. The majority knew that once a window was broken, the smoke and fire visible outside would be sucked in to the room, it would ignite, and they would all die.

The wife testified that as she spoke with her husband, she could here someone screaming "SMASH THE WINDOWS, WE ARE ALL GOING TO SUFFOCATE" and a chorus of voices arguing with him. Then, there was a crash and the husband resignedly said to the "They broke the windows." You can fill in the rest.

2) In a second case, a widow testifed that her husband ass-dialled her with his cel phone. She and the neighbors heard a horrifying sound collage, via her speakerphone. Someone was screaming hysterically. There were other yelling voices, and calls for a fire extiguisher. A voice called out "They used the fire extinguisher to break the window. They threw it thru the window..."

I think it might have been the same office.

it's a moot point, since everyone would have been killed when the building fell anyway. BUT, the BREAK THE WINDOWS minority were behaving EXACTLY as Mrs. Brown did. Had I been in that office, I can assure you I'd have brought a chair down on as many craniums as possible TO PREVENT THOSE WINDOWS, through which smoke and flames were visible, FROM BEING BROKEN. Because the majority were correct, and ended up dying a far worse burning death, because of the MAN AT THE BACK OF THE CROWD who "knew better."
 

Adam Went

Member
Jim:

Having read your posts, I can only conclude that you are having some kind of a laugh.

I mean, really?

To start with, Molly Brown was absolutely, definitely NOT the woman "at the back of the crowd" that you talk about - THAT person was Hichens himself. He was the one who was going around telling the people in Boat 6 that they could be drifting aimlessly for days and might never be found. HE was the one who, when the Carpathia fired a rocket as she approached, and the spirits in the boat lifted, told them all that it was just a shooting star.

It is thanks to Molly Brown that the women in the boat helped row and therefore helped them stay warm. It was her who kept the spirits up in Boat 6. If it had been left to Hichens, some of the weaker willed women on that boat probably would have lost hope very quickly and succumbed to the freezing cold.

Anyway, there is nothing, absolutely nothing, to suggest that things ever reached the point of being "hysterical" in Boat 6. Not even close.

Hichens doesn't exactly seems to have been the nicest of characters, a thought which is exacerbated by some of his conduct later in life.

I'm afraid you've got completely the wrong idea about Molly Brown. She was, and is, a definite hero and an inspiration from that night.

As for the water when the Lusitania sunk....so it was 55 fahrenheit. Great. It was about half that when the Titanic sank. The Lusitania sunk 10 miles off the coast, the Titanic in the middle of the North Atlantic. Fair enough that Lusitania's survivors might not have lasted longer in the water than an hour but I would say a good portion of those would be because they tired themselves out from trying to stay afloat and just drowned. For Titanic, the biting cold made it instantly difficult to breathe and within minutes the majority would have been semi-conscious, unconscious, and then dead.

I would imagine it would be much easier to keep up the will to survive when you can see the coast on the horizon as well in the case of the Lusitania. This was definitely not the case with the Titanic.
 
>I'm afraid you've got completely the wrong idea about Molly Brown. She was, and is, a definite hero and an inspiration from that night.

Sorry Adam. She was a loudmouthed idiot, not a hero.

Yes, I know its a good story...blah blah blah...took command of the boat. And people like to read romanticized good stories.

But, the fact is, she had a bunch of middle aged and older women (dont forget, the average lifespan for a woman in 1912 was 54 years) expend their strength, which they might have needed later, rowing in a flat calm.

>It is thanks to Molly Brown that the women in the boat helped row and therefore helped them stay warm.

It was not THAT cold. As I said, People who escaped wearing underwear and nightgowns did not become hypothermic in the boats. People who were totally saturated, perhaps as many as 50, survived the night in A, B, 4 and D.

What you had was a good order, to let the boat drift, overruled by a charismatic loudmouth.

As a veteran of many crossings, I can tell you that the North Atlantic can go from gently rolling to unpleasantly choppy in a very short time.

Although a panicked mob of drowning people seems to be an overated thrreat(judging from the lifeboat experiences of Lusitania, General Slocum, Morro Castle, and others) even moderate rough seas can be deadly to lifeboats.

Harkness, of the Lusitania, comanded a boat which survived being washed into the funnel stays of a violently sinking ship, and the post~ sinking mob. He was in a boat which was adequately manned.

Hichens wasnt.

In the majority of lifeboat accidents (from the Brother Jonathan thruy the Clallam, and onwards) the final disaster occurs when the uncontrolled lifeboat turns sideways to the mounting sea and either swamps or is capsized.

HAD the seas come up, thanks to Mrs. Brown and her "keeping the women warm," what Hichens would have been left with was a bunch of sedentary women who had worn themselves out "keeping warm" and rowing in a flat calm.


>Anyway, there is nothing, absolutely nothing, to suggest that things ever reached the point of being "hysterical" in Boat 6. Not even close.

Other than her own gasbag account. And those left by the chorus of dimwits she influenced. Which BTW, contain few details which match the details in HER accounts. Some call it being a "natural born storyteller." Others call it being a liar. I go with the latter.

Anotyher point which needs to be raised...the endless rowing was stupid for yet another reason. It moved people away from where the ship sank; the point to which rescue boats were heading. Remaining in the general area to which YOU KNOW SHIPS ARE COMING is smart. Fanning out over a large area isnt. It hinders an effective rescue.

>THAT person was Hichens himself. He was the one who was going around telling the people in Boat 6 that they could be drifting aimlessly for days and might never be found.

One might point out that he was giving an accurate assessment of their situation. It might be cruel to point that out, but accurate. He had, as a frame of reference, a number of shipwrecks in which boats fanned out in all directions; most never to be seen again. A 33 foot boat is a very small target, especially in rough seas.

He wasnt there to be jolly. He was there to save lives. And his sole mistake, which COULD have killed everyone in the boat, was in not immediately silencing the dangerous loudmouth who was undermining his command.

What you often see, post- catastrophe, is sort of a weird Stockholm Syndrome. An orderly evacutation breaks down. A doorway gets jammed, or a fire escape collapses. Those who survive SIDE WITH ThE MAN AT THE BACK, and blame the emergency responders for not being "quick" or "thorough" enough. If you point out to them that things were going well until the person far back in the crowd began agitiating, you are immediately accused of BLAME THE VICTIM.

You see this playing out in #6. A loudmouth who KNEW BETTER THAN THR PROFESSIONAL, and a bunch of people who were spared a truly frightening rough seas death ONLY by a weird weather pattern, siding with the idiot and not with the officer.

Using the WTC, 9/11, example I cited, Mrs. Brown was the equivalent of the bellowing moron who threw a fire extinguisher through an intact window and allowed flames to be drawn in to a sealed office. HE WANTED FRESH AIR. She wanted TO KEEP WARM. Only a miraculous flat calm saved #6.

Yes, Molly Brown is a fun story. Amazonian hero. Sniveling coward officer. ETC. BUT, if you look at it as a researcher and not a fan, you see that A) few of her details can be verified, B) many of her details were flat out lies...oh, I'm sorry "COLORFUL EXAGGERATIONS" C) the best source for MOLLY BROWN: HERO is her own account, and D) she did something stupid which could have killed everyone.

If you choose to base your opinion of heroism on A,B,C, and D, so be it. I prefer to think of women like Claire Kanres, who remained behind and died with 8+ months pregnant Mayme Corey, as cast in a heroic mold. Or Edith Evans. Or Annie Funk. Rhoda Abbott who would not leave her sons. Mrs. Straus.

>I would say a good portion of those would be because they tired themselves out from trying to stay afloat and just drowned.

And you would be incorrect. Use your search engine, and the keywords COLD WATER SURVIVAL TABLE. Then, read up on how quickly 50F water can sap one's strength. If you did not have a lifejacket, you were dead in the first hour unless you made it to one of the rafts. If you had one, you were in a stupor after the first hour, and in various degrees of shock by the time rescue boats arrived.

This account, by May Barrett, is the only one I have on hand at the moment which touches on what it was like to be in the water for a prolonged period.

"We had gone into the second saloon and were just finishing lunch. I heard something like the smashing of big dishes, and then there came a second and a louder crash. Miss MacDonald and I started to go upstairs and we managed to get up to the second deck where we found sailors trying to lower the boats. There was no panic, and the ship’s officers and crew went about their work quietly and steadily.

"I went to get two lifebelts, but a gentleman standing by told us to remain where we were and he would fetch them for us. He brought us two life belts and we put them on.

"By this time the ship was leaning right over to starboard, and we were both thrown down. We managed to scramble to the side of the liner. Near us I saw a rope attached to one of the lifeboats and I thought I could catch it. So, we murmured a few words of prayer and then jumped in to the water. I missed the rope, but floated about in the water for some time.

"I did not lose consciousness at first. I could not see anybody near me, and then I must have lost consciousness for I remember nothing more until one of the Lusitania’s lifeboats came along. The crew were pulling on board a woman who was unconscious, and they shouted to me “You hold on a little longer!” After a time, they lifted me out of the water and then I remember nothing more for a time that seemed to be an age.

"In the mean time, our boat had picked up twenty others, and when I became conscious it was getting late in the evening. We were transferred to the trawler and taken to Queenstown.

"Miss MacDonald told me how she floated nearly four hours in a dazed state. She had little remembrance of what passed until a boat saved her. She remembered someone saying “Oh, the poor girl is dead.” She had just the strength to raise her hand and they returned and pulled her on board.

I have part of a second account, by Gertrude Adams. Mrs. Adams and her daughter, Joan, were in the water 20 minutes. Gertrude swam to a pile of floating deck chairs, and placed Joan upon it:

“But I could not help her more than hold here there. Then, I had to watch her die. A young fellow near offered to take her while I tried to reach a tank that was floating a little way off, but my baby had passed away then and I felt I must kiss her goodbye.”

Mrs. Adams, a crew man, and several others clung to the tank. Only Mrs Adams and the man lived; the others relaxed their grips and flaoted off in stupors.
 
Rowing for the sake of trying to keep warm is a waste of energy which might be needed later. Huddling together to keep each other warm would make much more sense. The worst thing you can do is move away from the scene of the disaster where rescue ships were headed for. The best scenario in the middle of the ocean would be to tie up with other boats if possible and wait for rescue ships to arrive. If you were going to row anywhere, head for the green flares that Boxhall was firing. All the lifeboats had to have seen them. That's where rescue ships would head for. Boxhall also knew that the steamer lights seen all night on the horizon was not worth the effort to row to. Although he and others thought it was only about 5 miles away, he knew that they had to have seen Titanic's distress rockets but failed to come any nearer. Boxhall was the real hero by having those flares put in his boat. And he didn't row far away from where Titanic sank or head toward that unresponsive 4 masted tramp steamer. He knew that a number of ships would have received their SOS call, and would be on the way to the reported location. Any wonder why his boat was the first one to be picked up an hour and half before the sun rose?
 
If boat nº 6 was swamped in an attempt to rescue swimmers, Molly Brown would not be considered a criminal, but a fool that blinded by her noble feelings put her life and the rest of the boat nº 6 passengers in danger. However that was not the case and her reaction to the swimmer's issue was quite apropiate at the time. She also helped to minimize the effects of Hitchens negativity among those ones on board a tiny craft in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean.
 
Augusto...a salient point you seem to have overlooked is that she organised the women to row AWAY from the wreck site, and not TOWARDS it.

>If boat nº 6 was swamped in an attempt to rescue swimmers,

As I've said twice, it probably WOULDNT have been swamped. By the time they arrived on site, the people in the water would have been in horrible shape.

However, had the wind and water risen two hours earlier than it did, the occupants of 6 would have been in dire straits indeed. A bunch of middle aged and old people, who had already been awake 24 hours at that point and who had been power rowing in a flat calm, trying to save a foundering lifeboat is a scary thought.

Just as an aside. once, as teenagers, we rowed DOWN a lake with the wind... a lovely NY early summer gale... at our backs. Twas fun, and the three miles we rowed fairly flew. it was, in retrospect,a stupid situation to get into, but you know how kids are. The row back to the dock, against the wind, was tiring and frustrating for healthy teenagers. Three of the most tiring miles of my 43 years. And that's on a lake. A corpulent 50 year old woman who had been awake 24 hours fighting against that wind could not possibly have done it. And that's the situation Mrs. Brown set up for boat #6.

Noble instincts? Reading the most...unvarnished...acoounts of what happened in number 6 strongly suggests someone used to getting her own way having a tantrum because she wanted to KEEP WARM, and being seconded by a number of other passengers.

Noble? Her account slandered a crew member who was doing THE CORRECT THING. End of story. Read Sam's post. He's a mariner, and knows what he is talking about. And her actions endangered everyone in #6.

I've spent, oh, say, 20-30 years studyinhg disasters in depth. using only first person amterial and not mass market paperbacks. From that, I have determined that PEOPLE WHO LISTEN TO THOSE TRAINED TO DEAL WITH THE SITUATION tend to have a greater chance of survival than those who dont. PEOPLE WHO KNOW BETTER and who strike out on their own asphyxiate in smoky hallways, get swept away down flooding creek beds, and row away over horizons never to be seen again.

A friend of mine is a flight attendant. What he is faced with, EVERY time he flies, is giving out all the information that passengers will need to survive in a survivable situation, and seeing that no one is listening. Planes do not have standard exit locations. The flight attendant TELLS YOU where the exits are. Few ever listen. Subsequently, a fair number of people asphyxiate, when they head to rear exits which ARENT THERE and get trapped. The worst part is, the crew knows that post disaster there will be the usual clips of dazed survivors saying "It all happened so fast. We didnt know WHERE TO GO or what to do." And, for the sake of tact, no one ever says "Actually, you were told EXACTLY where to go and what to do, as is required by law. You just could not be bothered to look up from your magazine, and when you needed the information IT WASNT THERE."

When you try to adlib in a disaster situation, more times than not, you die. When you listen to people who knwo waht they are talking about, follow orders, and work AS A TEAM, you have a better chance of making it.
 

Adam Went

Member
Jim:

Well first of all, the average lifespan in 1912 has absolutely nothing to do with the average energy levels.

Yes there were others in other boats who were cold too, that's a given. It was a cold night, plain and simple. Anybody, including common sense, will tell you that the best way to keep warm is to keep active, and that's exactly what the women in Boat 6 were trying to do.

If they had rowed until dawn and the sun came out, then it might have been warm enough to not worry about rowing to keep warm. At 2.30 in the morning, they had to do something!

There were other women in Boat 6 who largely backed up Molly's version of events at the inquest, or more specifically Hichens' cowardice.

You can use all these "WHAT IF" scenarios as much as you like, the fact is that in the realistic version of events, Molly Brown did a terrific job keeping the spirits and the warmth up until the Carpathia arrived. We're talking about real events here, not hypotheticals.

I don't recall any of the survivors of Boat 6 complaining about the actions of Molly that night - do you? Well, excluding Hichens himself, obviously.

As for the Lusitania, I never said the water was nice and warm, but they had a better chance of survival where they were than where the Titanic was, both from the temperature of the water and the closeness of help.

You are of course entitled to your opinion about her. It's just unfortunate that your opinion happens to be complete rubbish.
 
Jim, all what you said makes perfect sense, but then I think your anger should be directed to people like the Countess of Rothes who actually had the control of the lifeboat in their hands. Molly only did made a proposition, never had full control of the craft!
 
>>Read Sam's post. He's a mariner, and knows what he is talking about.<<

Thanks for confidence Jim, but I would not call myself a mariner. I'm a systems engineer by profession with some practical experience in sailing and coastal navigation. I do like to fly single-engine land aircraft just for the fun of it, and have taken an active interest in applying my analytical skills to the study of the Titanic disaster, the Hawke/Olympic collision, and the Andrea Doria/Stockholm collision.

I think you may be taking the analogy of comparing Hichens to the role of a flight attendant a little too far. Flight attendants are trained to handle passengers in emergency situations. Hichens was trained as an able bodied seaman who could handle the boat and read a compass. Being able to handle a bunch of frightened passengers packed in small lifeboat and taking on a leadership role was not part of the training in those days. But he was put in charge of the boat and spoke quite bluntly which apparently rubbed some of them the wrong way.

>>Anybody, including common sense, will tell you that the best way to keep warm is to keep active, and that's exactly what the women in Boat 6 were trying to do.<<

Sure, feel warm and get exhausted. Then what? Common sense also tells you to get out of burning building as fast as you can. And that is what leads some people to panic. If an airplane looses power during its takeoff climb, common sense would tell you to turn back and try to make it back to the field. But your training as a pilot tells you how to survive by not attempting to do that. US Air Flight 1549 is a testament to that.
 
>It's just unfortunate that your opinion happens to be complete rubbish.

Well, since Sam...who is published, excellently reviewd, and who, btw, KNOWS WHAT HE HIS TALKING ABOUT agrees with my broad outline, I'd say that I am in good company. Michael, too.

Since Mrs. Brown and her legend are beloved of the Barbara Cartland crowd, (Women who wish that they could don flowery picture hats and hobble skirts, and be the Amazonian hero, and men who wish that they could don flowery picture hats and hobble skirts, and be the Amazonian hero) I breath a sigh of relief each time her supporters toss a barb in my direction. It's like being told I'm not cool enough to join a Brittney Spears worship site. God be praised.

>Well first of all, the average lifespan in 1912 has absolutely nothing to do with the average energy levels.

Of course it does. People did not suddenly hit the age of 52-54 in the full bloom of health and energy and then topple over and die. 52 was OLD.

>It was a cold night, plain and simple. Anybody, including common sense, will tell you that the best way to keep warm is to keep active, and that's exactly what the women in Boat 6 were trying to do.

Well, again, no. Common sense dictates that when you have a once every thirty years flat calm, you dont waste your energy rowing. You save your strength for when the wind and waves come back. And that when you KNOW a rescue ship is coming, you dont aimlessly row away from the spot to which the ship will likely head.

In short, "Heroic" Mrs. Brown was not acting sensibly. She was acting, at best, like she was having a tantrum over being cold and thwarted in her desire to row.

>As for the Lusitania, I never said the water was nice and warm, but they had a better chance of survival where they were than where the Titanic was, both from the temperature of the water and the closeness of help.

If you took even a second to educate yourself before you spoke, you could easily discover that the Lusitania sank at 2:28 and the first rescue ships arrived on scene around 5PM. The Titanic sank at 2:15 and the first ship arrived on scene 5-5:30. In either case it was a long wait. Closeness of help was NOT a factor in rescuing Lusitania survivors.

>You can use all these "WHAT IF" scenarios as much as you like, the fact is that in the realistic version of events, Molly Brown did a terrific job keeping the spirits and the warmth up until the Carpathia arrived. We're talking about real events here, not hypotheticals.

We are talking about a broad stroke of luck. She did something stupid. She got away with it, but that doesnt make her heroic...only lucky.

>There were other women in Boat 6 who largely backed up Molly's version of events at the inquest, or more specifically Hichens' cowardice.

*sigh*

A few salient points. The stories told at the inquest do not mesh, except in the broadest possible way. The witnesses were not sequestered, in many cases KNEW each other, were testifying a considerable amount of time after the event, were NOT cross examined, AND were speaking after Mrs. Brown had begun her ME: HERO publicity campaign (Remember the later TITANIC SURVIVOR IN PERPETUITY barbs directeed at her?) and was in the newspapers.

From a researchers standpoint, the evidence is mediocre at best.

What cannot be contested is that in her best known accounts, the BS is piled on thick and furious. HURLED TO THE FLOOR by the impact? No one else in first class was. HURLED INTO A LOWERING BOAT...great. Of course no one in the boat commented on this later, nor did anyone standing near who survived. (As I said, true stories tend to reenforce one another. MANY points of the boat 6 adventure have mutually supporting accounts to back them up. Nothing Mrs. Brown says does. A woman roughly the size of Jack Dempsey being dropped 8 feet into a lowering boat would tend to stand out. 27 people in the boat other than her and no one later commented? Not likely...

I can go on, but you get my drift. Her account is strewn with BS..oh, pardon me, COLORFUL EXAGGERATION... of the sort that appeals to fag hags and those who love them, but which make researchers wince.

If she cant be believed on the mechanics of the collision; her entry in to the boat; who was IN the boat ("Miss Norton?"); her exit from the boat; her experiences on the Carpathia, all of which she COLORFULLY EXAGGERATED in her better known accounts, why should her word concerning Hichens be views as anything other than the spiteful remarks of a liar...oh COLORFUL EXAGGERATOR?
 
>I think you may be taking the analogy of comparing Hichens to the role of a flight attendant a little too far. Flight attendants are trained to handle passengers in emergency situations. Hichens was trained as an able bodied seaman who could handle the boat and read a compass. Being able to handle a bunch of frightened passengers packed in small lifeboat and taking on a leadership role was not part of the training in those days. But he was put in charge of the boat and spoke quite bluntly which apparently rubbed some of them the wrong way.

Ah, Sam, that was typed out with one eye on the clock and was not as fully developed as it should have been.

The comparison was not between Hichens and a current day flight attendant, but in the situation either found, or will find oneself, in post disaster.

You dispense lidesaving information. No one listens. Some even contradict you. Then, AFTER the fire, when there is a mound of dead passengers at the back of the plane, and a larger mound forward of the overwing exits, made up of people who bypassed them heading for the front door and died in the aisle, and there are survivors saying things like "IT ALL HAPPENED SO FAST. NO ONE TOLD US WHAT TO DO!" you are the one who is going to be blamed for not getting everyone out. YOU are the one who is going to face accusatory questions; be called to testify in lawsuit depositions which are striving to make you look inept; and forever after be the VILLAIN WHO ESCAPED WHEN PASSENGERS DIED.

if you were to tell the truth: I STAND UP THERE LECTURING LIKE AN IDIOT WHILE 200 PEOPLE IGNORE ME WHILE THEY TRY TO COMPLETE THEIR ILLICIT TEXT MESSAGING, AND THEN PEOPLE GET LOST IN THE SMOKE AND DIE BECAUSE THEY DID NOT KNOW WHERE THE EXITS WERE, WHY IS IT my FAULT? You'll be accused of weasling; of being ungallant, and of blaming the victims.

if hcihens had spoken as bluntly, (and IMHO with more justification) about his passengers as they spoke about him, he'd have been accused of all of the above.

He had the misfortune of being in a boat with a charismatic loudmouth who also happened to be wealthy and have press access. He was stuck with people who did not listen and who went against lifesaving orders. That no one died was a stroke of luck...but HE ended up the villain of the piece, on very scanty evidence, and continues to be calumnied as the comic/villain of the piece.

So, it had nothing to do with the specifics of his training. Just the situation which followed his role in the disaster.
 
>but then I think your anger should be directed to people like the Countess of Rothes who actually had the control of the lifeboat in their hands

Augusto, The Countess of Rothes worked WITH the crew, not against them. She did not incite unrest amongst the passengers against Jones, nor did she do anything that could have killed the occupants of her boat.

She and Mrs. Brown are not in the same league.
 
>>Having read your posts, I can only conclude that you are having some kind of a laugh.<<

No he's not. What Jim is doing is stripping away the romantic legend and tempering it with the often harsh reality of the real world.

Rowing may have kept the ocupants of boat six warm, but just where do you think they were rowing to? They had no sense of direction and no idea from where rescue was to come or even if it was to come at all. What they needed to do, if they were going to row anywhere, would be to wherever the other boats were and stay with them. Rowing around aimlessly serves no purpose and if widely seperated from the group, makes search and rescue a damned sight harder then it needs to be.

>>Hichens doesn't exactly seems to have been the nicest of characters, a thought which is exacerbated by some of his conduct later in life.<<

No he wasn't. But, what does that have to do with the situation under discussion here? At sea, in an emergency situation, the survivors tend not to be the nice guys but the ones who keep their heads in a crisis. The ones who keep others alive are not the nice guys but the ones who can manage to keep control of the situation and who have the cajones to do whatever has to be done, and the devil take the hindmost.

The ones who get people killed are the ones who have no clue what they're doing but who become that loud voice in the back which panics the herd.

>>You can use all these "WHAT IF" scenarios as much as you like,<<

And that's exactly what Jim is not doing. What he's showing you is what has actually happened in situations which have occured in the real world. He's not making that stuff up.
 
>US Air Flight 1549

TOTALLY off topic, but interesting nevertheless, is 1549's notorious "older brother;" the botched ditching of ALM 900 in May 1970.

If you can track down the p[aperwork regarding that one, it is remarkably chilling.

The plane took off with a broken cockpit/cabin PA system.

Juliana Airport in St Martin was fogged in. The plane was diverted to another island; did not have enough fuel to make it; ditched while returning to Juliana.

There was no way to directly communicate BRACE OURSELF to the cabin.

The cabin crew was told that the cockpit would signal. But was not told what the signal would be.

When the FASTEN SEATBELTS lights were flashed repeatedly, some understood. others did not. So, although the plane did not break up, many were killed or knocked out upon impact. They were not belted in, and in the case of the lost stewardess, was on foot at the moment of impact.

The dead and unconscious were abandoned, and were lost when the plane sank. A few neglected to bring their life vests or seat cushions, and drowned while awaiting rescue.

Twas a textbook example of "What Not to Do."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ALM_Flight_980
 

Adam Went

Member
All of you are using a scenario that never eventuated. Fair enough to re-analyse Molly's actions if what all of you are saying actually happened, but it DIDNT. It could have, but it DIDNT. The rescue took place before that consideration could be made. What's the use of living in fantasy land here?

And it's not accurate to say that the survivors all weren't aware of when help was likely to arrive - on the upturned Collapsible B, Harold Bride had informed Officer Lightoller of exactly who was coming to their aid.

Jim:

I'm not in the business of dealing with what if scenarios that never actually happened. Let's stick to the facts here and not use completely irrelevant comparisons.

I don't know what your 52-54 age bracket has to do with anything, since Molly was what, 40-odd when the Titanic sank, and the Countess of Rothes was even younger.

It's not like Molly just sprang up in a moment of heroism in Boat 6. She had been helping people on board she ship before she even saved herself.

Michael:

Hichens' attitude has everything to do with what happened in Boat 6. If he was, in general life, not a particularly nice person, do you think he's going to be a nice character when he's just steered a ship into an iceberg, watched it sink and is then sitting in a tiny boat in the middle of the ocean with a bunch of women?

I don't. That night, he deliberately seemed to be negative, just because he could. Much like the men telling their wives on the ship "don't worry, i'll get another boat later on", he should have been saying "yes, help is on the way, spirits up", even if he didn't necessarily believe it. THAT was the way to keep people calm, NOT telling them that they might all meet their end drifting aimlessly for days....

Anyway, find me one person, Hichens aside, who complained about the behaviour of Molly Brown that night. Is there any?
 
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