What if EJ survived?

>>Think of the trouble Ismay got into and he wasn't even the guy who "had the watch" much less the burden of responsibility when the ship ran into an iceberg.<<

Maybe not, but many people at the time presumed he held responsibility, through authority, considering he was chairman of the WSL. It's my contention that Ismay would have got burned no matter which of the other officers survived. He would have even been cut down had TA survived.

That brings up another interesting question: What about Thomas Andrews. Keeping in mind the he was executive architect, do you believe he would have been cut down, too? I seem to get the impression that TA was a really very well-like man. He was one of the few in 1st-class who held concern for all those on board, even 3rd class.

Here's a possibility: People at the Inquiries (like anywhere else) were judged as they were favored. It seems that no matter what you do in your life, if your disliked (especially by someone in the media), you're a goner. That's just my observation, although I affirm that it's not always that way.
 
The last five messages before this one, and the one after it, are not where they once were; they've been moved into this earlier subtopic addressing the same question.
 
>>Maybe not, but many people at the time presumed he held responsibility, through authority, considering he was chairman of the WSL. It's my contention that Ismay would have got burned no matter which of the other officers survived.<<

I agree to a point. Make an enemy of somebody with the power of printing press then have some senator come gunning for your boss (Senator Smith had no love for J.P. Morgan ) by way of going right through you, and you don't stand much of a chance. The thing is that E.J. Smith was *the* Captain and that makes quite a bit of difference. The buck stops with him as the master whether he was being micromanaged by Ismay or not.

Dead, he became a hero. Alive, he'd have been a zero.

>>That brings up another interesting question: What about Thomas Andrews. Keeping in mind the he was executive architect, do you believe he would have been cut down, too?<<

No. The architects weren't really in anyone's gunsights. At least not for long if at all. They were apparantly seen as little more then sources of technical information. Alexander Carlisle was, for all practical purposes, The Father of the Olympic class liners and it doesn't look to me like was roasted by anybody. Edward Wilding was treated with a reasonable degree of respect as well.
 
I think that if smith had survived then we would know more about what happened on the final hours of the ship and i think that he would have saved the ships log too.
 
>>Smith was well aware that White Star would have investigated his prior commands, the 4 mishaps on Olympic, the fires on Adriatic, Baltic, Majestic,the near collision with an Iceberg by Majestic,the capsizing of Germanic,and the runnings aground of the Republic (1872) in 1889 and Coptic in 1890.<<

Aydan,

What incident regarding the Majestic and an iceberg are you refering? I havn't heard of that one. You also mention 4 incidents on the Olympic. Okay, I know about the Hawke and the propeller blade, but what are the other 2? Are you sure the Germanic incident even happened to Smith? Actually, Germanic never capsized. The ice on the deck caused it to list while it was coaling, and water started coming in through the coal shutes. The ship sank against the pier, about half way (I think the water came to right below the saloon deck). I've seen a picture of it. Anyway, just curious--Rob H.
 
Hello, Rob---

Please note that you're responding to a message posted four and a half years ago by someone who's no longer a member of this Board. I don't think he's going to answer.

P.S. Germanic's commander when she sank at her pier at New York in February 1899 was Edward McKinstry; see News from 1899: Germanic Sinks in Her Dock at New York .
 
Hi fellow members. Back in those days the owner of the ship could of dictact to the captain about the speed which the ship was going.Before titanic hit the iceburg,smith handed the iceberg warning to ismay.Smith was polity telling his boss Ismay to slow down,which Ismay ignored.I don't think it's captain smith's fault.In todays world the captain has totally controll of the ship,no questions asked.If that law was in back in 1912 era, i really think Smith would of slowen down the Ship and affioded a collision with an iceberg. Warm Cheers Aly.
 
>>Back in those days the owner of the ship could of dictact to the captain about the speed which the ship was going.<<

Actually, by law, he could do no such thing. The most he could do is make a suggestion and that was it. Much the same applies today. Once the ship is underway, the owner has no legal authority to dictate the details of how the ship is navigated. That authority lies with the master.

Now a small dose of reality is in order here: Ignoring an owner's "suggestions" could be hazardous to one's career so it certainly is possible that Ismay could have been quietly acting out the role as a second captain in the background.

The problem here is that there is no real evidence that he actually did.

Absent Ismay's presence, the Titanic would have been and in fact was not operated any differently from any other ship on the North Atlantic run and that in the end was the real problem. The watch team knew where the region of ice was located and when they could expect to be in it. Instead of steering a course further south to avoid it, they kept course and speed and gave the watch special instructions to be on the lookout for ice.
 
Sir,Have you ever heard the blue ribbon before?Ismay wanted to beat olympics record,Captain smith did not.
Captain smith had no intentions of risking anything , he was going to retire.
Those days one person could overrule the captain and that's the owner's.
After the disarter,the rule change, no owner is allowed to over rule the captain.when the captain is on board there ship, it's not the owner's ship it's the captains ship.

Cheers.
 
>>Sir,Have you ever heard the blue ribbon before?<<

Sure I have. The Blue Ribband is irrelevant since the Olympic class was not even remotely capable of taking it.

>>Ismay wanted to beat olympics record,Captain smith did not.<<

That may be so, but again it's irrelevant since the ship was only making it's expected service speed at the time. There is evidence that they may have intended to attempt a full power run on Monday afternoon, but it never came to pass.

>>Captain smith had no intentions of risking anything , he was going to retire.<<

Unfortunately, there is no primary source evidence to back up the claim that he was going to retire at the end of that particular voyage.

>>Those days one person could overrule the captain and that's the owner's.<<

Actually, they couldn't. The master's authority was dictated by law and the owners most certainly didn't have the authority to overrule them. They could dismiss him at the end of the voyage but that was as far as it went.

>>After the disarter,the rule change,<<

Not quite. There were some changes, the usual sort of knee-jerk "fixes" that only government can come up with, but they were not as sweeping or as all encompassing as commonly believed.
 
Actually Alison, Michael is 100% correct. All the stories about Ismay having 'the last word' are just that.

The British MN as the organisation it was to become was in it's infancy. Most of the ships - particularly large passenger ships were commanded by RN reserve officers. Indeed many of the other officers were also RN reserve. All of these gentlemen were very much aware of the fact that the Captain of a British ship was 'God' when the vessel was at sea. He didn't command respect - he demanded and got it!

The then Board of Trade Acts made it very clear as to where the 'buck' stopped.

I am slightly amused at some of the speculation on this site regarding the relative positions of Smith and Ismay at sea. OK! Hollywood has a lot to blame concerning this. I suspect that Ismay, like entrepreneurs the world over, was interested in profit. He would also be interested in seeing that his ships remained afloat and continued to make that profit. It follows that if he encouraged the idea among his commanders that certain others might have sway over how the ship was run - such encouragement might have a disastrous effect and remove authority from the one person who needed it most.


Having said that, it did not mean that a courteous and respectful commander should not listen to, and weigh-up, any suggestion made by his employer or anyone else for that matter.

I note references to other 'incidents' during Smith's career. If, as it is inferred - Smith was in some way incompetent or a 'Jonah'; would Ismay have risked his ;pride and joy' in that man's hands?

I also note comparisons between Smith, Rostron and Lord.
Speaking as a professional- Lord was by far the most competent Master. Rostron was just very lucky he didn't add his crew and passengers to the already too high body count and Smith never got the chance to defend himself. Come to think of it - neither did Lord.

Cheers!

Jim.
 
Hi Guys,thanks for the information i greatful.There was histoians with a statement that smith walk passed Ismay and handed the iceberg warning to his boss,Ismay said nothing to Smith.
Why a captain of a ship hand a iceberg warning to his boss?
Captain smith was waiting for his anwser and got no word.
Acording to the experts historians that captain smith was waiting for his bosses answer.i'm going by the histrians here, thats were i got my information from.Today Captains are fully in charge of the ship with out risking losing there jobs, they stated all this.So it's so hard to believe anyone, everyone's got different answers all the time. Warm cheers

PS- Sorry for the bad speeling
 
Hello Alyson,

Sorry for spelling your name wrong.

The 'historians' have only an idea what was in Smith's mind when he let Ismay have a look at the Iceberg warning.

In Captains Smith's day Captains were even more authoritarian than they are to-day. They were like that up until the 1970s. Since then, things have become more informal but as you say; the Captain is still the 'main man'.

As to what was in his mind when he gave the ice message to Mr. Ismay: I would guess he was already thinking he might have to slow down later and was making his job easier for when he had to do it - preparing the ground so to speak.
If he slowed the ship down - particularly on the maiden voyage he would have to answer to Mr. Ismay anyway as well, of course, as the paying passengers.

I know the 'please sir. please sir' picture of Captain Smith is popular but it is only so among people who having nothing to go on. I won't say 'don't know what they're talking about' because lots of them know far more about the 'Titanic' than I do but I do know ships.

Cheers,

Jim
 
>>Why a captain of a ship hand a iceberg warning to his boss?<<

I suspect Captain Jim's answer is spot on in this matter. Aside from keeping the Big Guy informed, he was covering his butt in case he had reason in his own judgement to slow down. Keeping to the schedule was king in those days and still is. Captains who couldn't do that and who were in the habit of making port late tended not to be captains for very long.

On the matter of histories, one needs to be extremely careful in reading what's out there. At best they are secondary sources and quite a few popular histories have a habit of uncritically repeating the errors-of-fact that even the very best are troubled with.

Even primary sources can be a problem in this area but at least from them, you have what was actually said or claimed from the source and in context. If you don't have them, the Inquiry transcripts are absolutely essential and are available on line at http://www.titanicinquiry.org/

Reading them is about as exciting as watching paint dry, but if you want to see for yourself what somebody said in it's full and complete context, this is where you need to go.
 
Every thing makes since.
Where i got the information from was the historian that actually found Tianic and the Bismarck.but by saying that, he was not born back in those days ,so there is a good chance that he was wrong about some things.I also respect You guys. warm Cheers.
 
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