What if Lightoller had the Watch

[Erik Wood]

Good Morning and Happy New Year to all. I have done some thinking and reviewing and to my knowledge the following question hasn't been asked. This is a theory as well as a what if.

As we all know with addition of Mr. Wilde all of the officers third and above were bumped down with the exception of Blair who escaped the voyage all together. But had Mr. Wilde remained on the Olympic rather then coming to Titanic it would have been Lightoller and not Murdoch on watch that night. We already know a few things about Lightoller and his leadership style.

1. Lightoller was a very agressive leader. He went to Smith to lower the lifeboats after not recieveing what he considered to be a satisfactory answer from Wilde.
2. One could assume that he was also more into getting the job done rather then preserving the looks. Basically getting out of danger then dealing with what he had to do afterwards.

a. In WW1 he rammed a German U-Boat and because of it had to run back to England in reverse. He saw the sub needed to be sunk and he had no other means so he rammed it.

3. Lightoller was more alert and conducted a more pro active watch.

a. He alerted the lookouts to keep a sharp eye for ice.
b. Had the carpenter look after the fresh water supply. (things of this nature to me as an officer show that he would rather see things done right the first time and avert rather then react when the situation came.

So the over all question if that if Lightoller had the watch would have attempted as some believe Murdoch did to not damage the propellers by stopping the engines. Or would Lights have "gunned it" and threw the helm hard over. Then if he hit attempt to round it. Or would he just have attempted a crash stop. One could argue the Lightoller was a more pro active officer then Murdoch was on the way he conducted his watches. These are all arm chair quarter back theories as I call them but I think and hope one that will provide for some interesting insight and lively conversation.

Erik

 

[Michael H. Standart]

With the unwritten order to crack on as was the practice in the Atlantic run back then, I'm not sure Lights could have made that much of a difference. This is not to disparage him or Will Murdoch. They were both excellant mariners, however, even the best of the best is reduced to reacting when caught by surprise, as Murdoch was that night. The first warning they had of THE iceberg which actually sank them was when Fleet phoned in the bad news. By that time, they were practically on top of it.

Not a nice position to be in.

Cordially,
Michael H. Standart

 

[Erik Wood]

Definitly not. But all the same they were two different mariners and may have reacted differently. It is easy to arm chair quarterback. But I think it interesting that history might have been different if Wilde had not gotten on at all.

Erik

 

[Beverly J. Crowder]

I really like Erik's rendition of what may have transpired under Lights... sounded like good quarterback arm chairing to me Erik!

Beverly

 

[Erik Wood]

Thanks Beverly I try.

Erik

 

[Laura Jayne Gardner]

Excellent argument, and probably very true, but we may have not been chatting here now if he had been on watch.....
Laura

 

[Steffen Reichel]

Dear Erik,
from my point of knowledge, and it is less than you got, I personyl would not make any difference in their 'what to do'.
Murdoch in my guess (see sinking theories and my thread 'port around? Another guess' did all in the possibilities to avoid the impact.
Lightoller would have done the same, because it was common to do so.
Murdoch set engine commands for 'cash-stopp' and immediately started a turn, to ensure all possibilities. If stopp will not performed in time, try to get around. Both points failed. Engines never attampet crash-stopp and he drifted onto the ice ram.
What would Lighttoller may have done? Same! Immediately stopp, turn an march ahead again. This is the common and usual manouever still today. If an object apaeres close to the bow, attempt crash stopp, no guess about shafts and engines. So get full reverse powers as quick as possible. And starting to turn, maybe to get some meters more, before the forward drift is stopped by reverse engines, and of course start and prepare for a 'drive around'.....
Anything Murdoch did not? If Lightoller was more agressive, he maybe felt or knew (Did any officer not knew, how long it will take to set engines from 'full ahead' to 'full astern'? I guess no!) that he would hit before engines gained full reverse power for crash-stop, so he maybe turned to bow again to the iceberg, to hit it with the lowers profile and strongest part of the hull. This maybe he would have done,if he is an aggessive ships 'driver', but in fact to be secure for the passengers healthyness no officer would do a collision bow ahead without collision alarm before. Not any destroyer an the Navy does it, the all sound collision alert, so all folk abord can try to catch something to hold on.
So Murdoch would have done right, as Lightoller would have done, as he would had the watch.


A personal word: Please do not mind about mistakes, because english is not my 'mothers language'.....

 

[Erik Wood]

No Problem about the English Steffen, it is my native launguage and I can hardly speak it.

Some of my reasoning behind this whole thread lies in two things. For some reason that still makes little or no sense to me Murdoch stopped or slowed his forward momentum while giving a helm order. In my years at sea you gun it and bank hard to one side. The rounding manuver was good but there is still some controversy as to why Murdoch did that. I believe that Lightoller would have either made a crash stop seeing the distance to short to make a turn or would have kept power believing he could turn around it and if he didn't and he did hit somewhere on the berg then he would have rounded it like Murdoch did. Lightollers aggressiveness is part of his outstanding leadership. He would have gotten the job done and waited to see what was going to happen after that. It is the theory of some that Murdoch stopped the engines not as a crash stop but as a precaution to protect the propellers. That to me would make more sense then stopping your engines in the middle of a manuver. Just a few thoughts.

Laura add your two cents I am interested to see what other people have to say.

Erik

 

[Inger Sheil]

Hallo there, Erik. Here we are in the speculative field of what-ifs, hampered by lack of data. Much of what we know about the pro-activeness of Lightoller is derived from his own account - he survived to provide testimony about what orders he had given. Murdoch didn't.

1. Lightoller was a very agressive leader. He went to Smith to lower the lifeboats after not recieveing what he considered to be a satisfactory answer from Wilde

Remember, we don't have either Wilde or Smith's version of this exchange. I'm inclined to believe that Wilde's role in the evacuation is open to misunderstanding - rather than a passive figure, I believe he was actively involved in the distribution of manpower at the lifeboats. But I digress...

2. One could assume that he was also more into getting the job done rather then preserving the looks. Basically getting out of danger then dealing with what he had to do afterwards.

I don't quite take your point here - why would you assume that this position was exclusive to Lightoller? Murdoch was very interested in 'getting the job done' and did so with at least as much success as Lightoller. The juniors, Lowe and Moody in particular, were also acting with occasionally ruthless single-mindedness.

a. In WW1 he rammed a German U-Boat and because of it had to run back to England in reverse. He saw the sub needed to be sunk and he had no other means so he rammed it.

And, according to one eyewitness, Murdoch avoided an collision with a windjammer by prompt an somewhat unorthodox action while he was serving on the Arabic - he, too, had a demonstrated ability to think quickly and pro-actively. It's one of the reasons he was regarded as a superlative officer.

3. Lightoller was more alert and conducted a more pro active watch.

a. He alerted the lookouts to keep a sharp eye for ice.
b. Had the carpenter look after the fresh water supply. (things of this nature to me as an officer show that he would rather see things done right the first time and avert rather then react when the situation came.

Once again, we're looking at an accident in which many of the key witnesses died. Moody might have been able to tell us more about that final watch, but he perished. Smith and Wilde might have had something to say about Murdoch's activity, but they were both dead. We do know that Murdoch took some preventative measures - ordering the area before the bridge darkened, for example - but we will never know exactly what transpired that final Watch.

I don't believe we have sufficient reason to make a sweeping statement that 'Lightoller was more alert' - he had already reported to Murdoch what actions he had taken, and we know that Murdoch took at least one additional precautionary measure. Murdoch was himself out on the Bridge wing keeping a lookout.

So the over all question if that if Lightoller had the watch would have attempted as some believe Murdoch did to not damage the propellers by stopping the engines. Or would Lights have "gunned it" and threw the helm hard over. Then if he hit attempt to round it. Or would he just have attempted a crash stop. One could argue the Lightoller was a more pro active officer then Murdoch was on the way he conducted his watches. These are all arm chair quarter back theories as I call them but I think and hope one that will provide for some interesting insight and lively conversation.

Obviously, as you know, this is a hypothetical to which we will never know the answer. Lightoller might have responded differently in that instant he had to make a decision, or he may have made exactly the same decisions Murdoch did. I do contest the idea, however, that Lightoller was a more effective officer. Much of what we know of his actions comes from the information he himself was able to provide. Had Murdoch survived to speak on his own behalf we would, I believe, have a fuller knowledge of what actions he took both before and after the disaster. As it is, there is a good deal of testimony that indicates he was at least as pro-active an officer as Lightoller. The very fact that Lightoller was the only senior surviving officer has skewed our perceptions of his role in the disaster - he looms inevitably large in how we see events, as he was in a position that no other survivor held. Had Murdoch made it to Collapsible A and lived, or had Moody (who was with him during that last watch and who assisted him at several of the boats) survived, we might have a rather different idea of the personalities and incidents that occurred.

All the best,

Inger

 

[Maureen Zottoli]

Dear Erik,

Brainstorming possibilities may be great Monday Morning, but Sunday, its a whole other ballgame.

All of the officers of Titanic seem to have had a lot of experience and I agree with Inger, that Murdoch had more than proven himself capable of handling quick decisions in other situations.

Steffen has a point as well that they may have reacted precisely the same.

Erik, you travel by sea a lot as a deck crew member. If something had happened and you were Murdoch. And now, if you were behind a wall of glass right now and you had been Murdoch that night wouldn;t you want to assume that all would hope that you had done your best? And wouldn;t it make you want to shout out the truth of what happened, if they didn't? But if only one witness could come forward....

But like Inger shared, Murdoch didn;t even have Wilde, Smith and Moody to do that for their co-worker. Because they died with him.

And yes, I am a hopeless romantic who as Senan has said elsewhere speaks without any facts most of the time, but I just have a gut feeling about Mr Murdoch. He did his absolute level best with what he was given and he did a lot better than most would have done in his place. He seemed to have a level of compassion for people and took to filling the boats with "people" not just women and children.

When I see a man who likes cars with his new BMW or new LOTUS, I see a kid with a new toy...I can not imagine that any officer on Titanic did not fully examine that ship from stem to stern just as I knew that Michael Standart would check out the model first then read the Lusy book. There is not one seaman here that would not have examined that ship completely upon boarding her. The trials and how she handled things. Murdoch knew her, just like Parks knows the USS Iwo Jima.

Don;t get me wrong, I know that Murdoch was human and he made mistakes in his life, but for that night, I truly feel that he did his best.

This is probably not worth two cents, but it is my contribution here for what it is worth.

Maureen.

 

[Inger Sheil]

Interesting thoughts there, Maureen. While I don't usually use my instincts as an argument in a debate (because I'd get dinged on it if I did), I have come to rely on instinct/intuition/hunches/gut feelings as part of my research. I rarely discuss it publicly, but there have been times when I've followed an intuitive guess and it has almost invariably paid off with new material. In one memorable instance I impulsively hopped on a train and did a trip of 3+ hours each way to spend an hour on location because of a strong intuitive hunch. How much of it is actually instinct or intuition and how much merely a subconscious linking of small details that coalesce into an idea to be pursued, I couldn't say.

In Murdoch's case, though, we have the testimony of peers who thought very highly of his abilities. His results for his certificate examinations are also highly indicative of his ability - I've waded through quite a few such results for the mercantile marine of the era, and Murdoch's are extremely impressive.

All the best,

Inger

 

[Erik Wood]

Hello All,

I think you got my points and missed some. My reasoning behind thinking of Lightoller as a more pro active watch officer is the fact that as he noticed the temprature change he saw to things like the fresh water supply, informed the lookouts of the possibilty of ice and to keep a look out for it. Murdoch was just as active as Lightoller in the lowering of boats. My point is that Lightoller younger may have reacted differently then Murdoch because of his leadership style. Not because of any particular incident in his past.

My point with saying the Lightoller was more into getting the job done rather then preserve looks was this. It is generally thought by some on this board that Murdoch stopped the engines in order to avert damage to the propellers when at the time that is not what he should have been concerend with. Granted this is all theory that nobody will ever no the answer to but I think Lightoller would have been more interested in not hitting the berg and rather then stop the engines he would have kept the power up and attempted to manuver around it. Would that have worked? I don't know I don't think anybody will. We weren' there.

I am not trying to blame or discredit Murdoch for his efforts that night. I am sure that he did what he thought was best. But to me as a leader there are two clearly different leadership styles in Murdoch and Lightoller. Murdoch was firm and very rigid as well as dicsiplined and saw to the situation in which he saw and not the situation on a whole. Meaning (keep in mind that I am referring to his stop manuver)he was more concerned with not damaging the ship rather then keeping it afloat. When it came to loading Murdoch allowed anyone that he could find. Granted the only person to survive that last watch was Hitchens and it has been argued that his testimony was "staged" but Murdoch seemed to be more reactionary then precautionary as Lightoller was. Lightoller was a little more disciplined good or bad. For instance he allowed ONLY women and children he made Major Peuchen slide down the falls to get into a boat. Although Lightollers boats were leaving half empty he stuck to the Captains orders and as I am sure Murdoch did he told those he put in command to stand by the after gangway doors. Lightoller was a little more decisive I think. But again these are only my arm chair quarter backing theories. What brings this to mind is the fact after re reading one of my many Titanic books that with the addition of Wilde things got messed up in the officer rotation.

Erik

 

[Inger Sheil]

Erik -

I have to disagree with you on the idea that Murdoch was more 'rigid' than Lightoller. You seem to be basing this on your interpretation of his helm orders, and if there's one thing that the last couple of years have taught me about this is that we're treading on *extremely* controversial ground here. There are several very powerful theories doing the rounds at the moment, and I consider this matter very far from settled. I don't think Murdoch was 'rigid' at all - I believe he was (as his actions had demonstrated in the past) a quick thinking, adaptable officer who took the initiative in a crisis. I'm a little confused by your use of the term 'reactionary' - the Oxford dictionary definition of this term is 'opposed to progress or reform'. I question the appropriateness of applying this word to Murdoch, particularly in contrast to Lightoller (and especially as you're casting Lightoller as 'a little more disciplined'). I don't think there is any real basis for stating that Lightoller was 'a little more decisive'.

I also reiterate that I think you don't have enough data to state that Lightoller was a more proactive watch officer than Murdoch - we simply do not have enough information on orders Murdoch might have given during that final watch. We only know, for example, that he ordered the area darkened before the bridge because the crewman who performed the action not only survived, he testified on this point.

Lightoller may well have reacted 'differently' (but the same could be said of any two individuals), but I can't subscribe to your contention that he was a more 'pro-active' officer than Murdoch.

All the best

Inger

 

[Jason Bidwell]

I'm not sure if I would consider Murdoch more "rigid" than Lightoller either. After all, in the loading of the lifeboats, Lightoller seems to have rigidly intepreted the "Women and children first" order to mean "WAC only." Murdoch was more flexible to the situation, and probably saved more lives than if he had followed Lightoller's lead. In the context of the loading of the lifeboats I would think that Murdoch, and not Lightoller, was more decisive and took more initiative.

But what do I know? Perhaps Lights could have saved the ship if he was senior officer on the bridge that night.

 

[Tracy Smith]

I agree with you Jason about the difference between Murdoch and Lightoller in the loading of the lifeboats in re women and children. You took the words right out of my mouth.

Lightoller, here, seems to be the more rigid one, taking the orders quite literally to the point of lowering half empty boats rather than add men in order to lower them full.