What if modern technology had existed in 1912?

[Adam Went]

I guess what this really all links back to is the old argument that if the Titanic had more lifeboats, more lives would have been saved. I don't see this as necessarily being a fact because some lifeboats still left at a fraction of their capacity, and we've all heard about the struggle with the collapsible boats in the final minutes. Probably what would have happened is that there would have been lifeboats still attached to the wreck of the Titanic. So my point is that in order for this to have been avoided, the technology and sense to avoid the iceberg in the first place should be seen as more important than 'flaws' in the planning of the ship, should it not? Of course, it is all looked at with the benefit of hindsight.

Cheers,
Adam.

 

[Alex F]

Alex --

Please document your proof of your claims, including both historical records of such problems affecting navigation and/or radio officers and give us medical sources of research into the alleged problems.

-- David G. Brown

Hi, David = =

Assumption is that the head of wireless operator on the Titanic was within one meter from the antenna base (bottom end of antenna).

The antenna on the Titanic was voltage-fed T-vertical. The radiator (vertical element of the antenna) was very short. The horizontal part of antenna (between masts) was only "hat" (loading for short vertical part) and not radiator.

The short radiator has strong near-field at its base (where the head of the operator was within one meter).

The safe limit (MPE threshold) for sitting within one meter of such antenna is 6 minutes (plus minus).

The electric field within one meter of the antenna on the Titanic (assumed from the antenna description and power in question, 5 KiloWatt) was over 1000 V/m.

The mechanism of effect (in short) is described (as an example) here, here and here.

The magnetic compass is same as physical body. (You may try to use welding machine(sparks) near the magnetic compass and look at the compass). You may read SOLAS rules what distance to be between the magnetic compass and radiating equipment. What do they say?

BR

Alex

 

[David G. Brown]

Alex -- thanks for responding.

Having been in broadcasting and ships for most of 60 years now, I've not seen any fellow workers suffer the ill-effects you describe while on duty. Nor have I experienced any compass deflection while using pilothouse radar and/or communications equipment. Not that either medical or magnetic effects are impossible, just that in my experience they are virtually undetectable when it comes to the operational safety of ships. In particular, Titanic had its standard compass (the one by which it was navigated) located quite far from any electro-magnetic influence. And, there is nothing in the conduct of either of the ship's two radio officers to indicate they were at all incapacitated before or during the sinking. And, to my knowledge, not one member of either Olympic's nor Titanic's crew and/or passengers was ever killed or even said to have been made "euphoric" by radiation from the wireless equipment. You have raised the specter of a problem regarding Titanic for which no evidence exists.

Assumptions are not allowed to be unchallenged in serious debate. I don't know how far the operators were from the dangers you perceive, but you can't simply guess about these things if you are going to make sweeping judgments. How far was the operator's head? There are people who could tell you that distance to within a few inches or less. And, they could explain what methods (if any) were employed to protect the wireless crew. You are fond of the web. Search out this information and only if it is not available make assumptions. This is critical because your conclusions aren't borne out by the facts of the Titanic case.

You have raised an interesting question, however. What did those early Marconi operators die from? Was their an unusual number of brain cancers or other problems associated with radiation? Maybe there is a connection. I don't know. What I do know is that these days we are more aware of the dangers and take measures to mitigate them as far as possible without degrading the safety advantages of radio, radar, etc.

As far as the mariner's compass goes, it is far more likely to be deviated by local electrical wiring than RF radiation. This was known in 1912 and was one of the factors in the continued use of oil lamps to illuminate compass binnacles. These days, twisting the DC wire pairs of compass lights is standard practice. And, it has been found a "rat's nest" of wiring near the binnacle is less likely to cause deviation than neat wiring. Of course, Titanic used oil lamps. In addition, the ship itself was recognized as the greatest source of deviation. That's why the standard compass was located amidships on a non-magnetic platform. It was raised above the ship's wiring and placed where the steel ahead was about equal to the steel behind the compass. Quite an unhandy location, but i'm sure effective for its purpose.

-- David G. Brown

 

[Alex F]

And, to my knowledge, not one member of either Olympic's nor Titanic's crew and/or passengers was ever killed or even said to have been made "euphoric" by radiation from the wireless equipment. You have raised the specter of a problem regarding Titanic for which no evidence exists.

Assumptions are not allowed to be unchallenged in serious debate. I don't know how far the operators were from the dangers you perceive, but you can't simply guess about these things if you are going to make sweeping judgments. How far was the operator's head? There are people who could tell you that distance to within a few inches or less. And, they could explain what methods (if any) were employed to protect the wireless crew. You are fond of the web. Search out this information and only if it is not available make assumptions. This is critical because your conclusions aren't borne out by the facts of the Titanic case.

You have raised an interesting question, however. What did those early Marconi operators die from? Was their an unusual number of brain cancers or other problems associated with radiation? Maybe there is a connection. I don't know. What I do know is that these days we are more aware of the dangers and take measures to mitigate them as far as possible without degrading the safety advantages of radio, radar, etc.

Thanks David ==

What do we know Phillips collapsed, Bride had injures to his feets. (Interesting to note that RF radiation over threshold limit causes fail of thermoregulation and feets are the most sensible parts to be injured by RF. Later he died from lung cancer. So what?)

The rate of dying from cancer is more in the population of radio operators. You may check here (search for example "Poland", "Norway"). But these people worked within and below theshold limit (I hope).

The Titanic was huge not only in size. The power of transmitter was 10 times more than on the Carphatia or other vessels. Plus traffic size (time to transmit and relay the telegams).

They were effected.

BR

Alex

 

[David G. Brown]

Alex --

Never said they weren't exposed to more RF energy than we moderns consider safe. What I said is that such exposure does not seem to have hampered their performances...especially Phillips at the key...as Titanic sank. Thus, the RF danger does not appear to have been relevant to the sinking.

Did Phillips collapse? My recollection is that he had to be dragged away from the telegraph key by Bride as water was coming over the front of the boat deck. His actions were more of a man fixated by his duty (common in war and other stressful situations). And, he had been on duty for quite a number of hours with some loss of sleep repairing the equipment before that. Both of them then managed to scamper over the officer's quarters. It is possible they both reached that overturned boat before Phillips expired. Honestly, I don't trust the veracity of anything Bride said. Even so, I can't see any evidence of sudden onset RF poisoning that night.

And, to go back to the compass, the location of the wreck when combined with the bits and pieces of the ship's navigational record indicate they were not having any difficulty keeping on course. Again, no influence of RF on the compass as a factor in the accident.

-- David G. Brown

 

[Samuel Halpern]

>>Assumption is that the head of wireless operator on the Titanic was within one meter from the antenna base (bottom end of antenna).<<

Assumptions can be dangerous, especially when they are wrong. I have to agree with David's observation. The exposure of the operators, or anything else for that matter, to non-ionizing electromagnetic field radiation does not appear to have been relevant to the events of that night.

 

[Alex F]

Assumptions can be dangerous, especially when they are wrong. I have to agree with David's observation. The exposure of the operators, or anything else for that matter, to non-ionizing electromagnetic field radiation does not appear to have been relevant to the events of that night.

Sam,


Did you make any assumption why the Titanic was found far away from her SOS position?

How do you know? An assumption?

No influence?

No influence on the magnetic compass?

How do you know?

If the antenna natural resonance does not match the transmitting wave, what happened? What was natural resonant wave of the Titanic antenna?

If the the ship has 60-90 meters wire between the standard compass and the bridge as means of communication, can this wire be an antenna?

How far should be an antenna from the magnetic compass? Why?



BR

Alex

 

[Jim Currie]

Sam,


Did you make any assumption why the Titanic was found far away from her SOS position?

I'll stand well back during the reply to that one.

No influence on the magnetic compass?

Of course and external magnetic field would effect a magnetic compass. For your information, the effect on a magnetic compass of an electromagnetic field was well known and compensated for during construction.
However, In all the years I served as a navigator on vessels using much the same as, but more powerful than the equipment installed on Titanic, I never experienced or heard of any problems with compasses or wireless operators. We used to joke about the mental health of 'Sparks' but most of the ones I knew were very sharp cookies indeed. As for long term effects? I still keep in touch with a couple of Sparks I knew way back in 1960. They are both in their 80s and I wouldn't bet on beating them at chess.

If the antenna was producing a multi-variable electromagnetic field, it would only have the effect of making the needle oscillate almost imperceptibly, but would have no effect on the efficiency of the compass.

Jim C.

 

[Alex F]

In all the years I served as a navigator on vessels using much the same as, but more powerful than the equipment installed on Titanic,

Jim, the power of ship's transmitters was limited since Berlin International Wireless Telegraph Convention of 1906:

"The power transmitted to the wireless telegraph apparatus shall not, under normal conditions, exceed one kilowatt."

The Titanic had 5 kW.

In your years it might be 2 kW, and on HF (not MF, 500 kHz, where the antenna is short and a lot of the power is radiating in the radio room.)

"Maestro Maxwell was right—we just have these mysterious electromagnetic waves that we cannot see with the naked eye. But they are there."

Heinrich Hertz

BR
Alex

 

[Samuel Halpern]

I'll try to keep this simple. Alex, you asked:

>>No influence on the magnetic compass? How do you know?<<

Somewhere between 7:30 and 10:00pm, 4/O Boxhall took a number of celestial observations to check on compass deviation. He determined that the vessel was heading on true course of 266°. The intended course after the corner turn was 265° true. Course error had nothing to do with the vessel being 13 miles from the SOS position. Olympic traveled that same route many times without navigational incident.

 

[Alex F]

I'll try to keep this simple. Alex, you asked:

>>No influence on the magnetic compass? How do you know?<<

Somewhere between 7:30 and 10:00pm, 4/O Boxhall took a number of celestial observations to check on compass deviation. He determined that the vessel was heading on true course of 266°. The intended course after the corner turn was 265° true. Course error had nothing to do with the vessel being 13 miles from the SOS position. Olympic traveled that same route many times without navigational incident.

At 07:30 Phillips was on dinner and then they had chat with Bride. The transmitter was silent.

BR

Alex

 

[Jim Currie]

Jim, the power of ship's transmitters was limited since Berlin International Wireless Telegraph Convention of 1906:

"The power transmitted to the wireless telegraph apparatus shall not, under normal conditions, exceed one kilowatt."

The Titanic had 5 kW.

If you can tell me the pattern and strength of the magnetic field generated round the antenna during transmitting, I'll dredge my memory banks and see if I can tell you how it would effect the compass. However,even if such an effect was experienced, it would only be a very transient disturbance which would not induce any form of permanent error and would probably go unnoticed by anyone on the platform. The Standard compass was checked at very regular intervals during every Watch. The method of checking while out o sight of land involved taking the bearing of a heavenly body and comparing the calculated true bearing with the actual bearing taken. The error derived was the combined error which included the magnetic variation for the place where the bearing was taken. This was always known since it was marked on the chart by the cartographers. Applying the known magnetic variation from the calculated error obtained by azimuth bearing would give the deviation of the compass used; in this case the standard compass. In the case of Titanic with a newly corrected compass, the error would be very small.. in the region of about 2 degrees. Since deviation is caused by magnetic influence due to surrounding ferrous metal and electromagnetic generated fields and the former would have been compensated for: any uncommon value for deviation would result in an inquiry as to why. In addition, during comps adjusting, a Deviation Card would be produced. This showed the actual deviation error of the compass at every one of the 32 point of the compass. Any abnormal error would also be picked up by consulting the Deviation Card.

Jim C.

 

[Alex F]

If you can tell me the pattern and strength of the magnetic field generated round the antenna during transmitting, I'll dredge my memory banks and see if I can tell you how it would effect the compass.

It depends not on the pattern of the antenna but mainly on north-south orientation of the ship. (You can check here. )

The Titanic had about 120 meters of antenna alongside (horizontal wire), from one mast to another. And about 40 meters of vertical wire.

BR
Alex

 

[Jim Currie]

It depends not on the pattern of the antenna but mainly on north-south orientation of the ship.

The Titanic had about 120 meters of antenna alongside (horizontal wire), from one mast to another. And about 40 meters of vertical wire.

Err not really Alex. I don't need to consult your recommended site, I am very much aware of induced magnetism in a ship. In fact, the amount and polarity of induced magnetism in a ship is not confined to one heading, it varies with the heading and how long the ship remains on that heading. It is the result of the ship passing through the magnetic lines of force eminating from the poles of the earth.. the earth's magnetic field. In the case of Titanic, she was about 70 degrees to the earth's magnetic pole on her final course. Therefore magnetism was being induced to her port and starboard sides. If you apply Fleming's right hand rule to a wire carrying current then you will see the direction of the magnetic lines of force. However it is not only the direction of these lines we should be concerned about but the number and strength of these line passing through a place at a given time.

Jim C.

 

[Samuel Halpern]

Actually Alex, it was about 7:30-7:40 when Lightoller and Pitman first took sights. Boxhall didn't come on watch until 8:00, and first spent time working out the ship's 7:30 fix. Much later he took bearings from the standard compass to check on the compass deviation error as Jim explained. I believe Boxall said that he completed all that work about 10 or thereabouts to show to Lightoller who was on duty until 10 that night. Your grasping at straws my friend.