What if the ships could

[Kyle Fisher]

What if the ships did come to the rescue the passengers and crew of the Titanic?

 

[Michael H. Standart]

Kyle, this is a rather tough one to answer as intership transfers at sea are not the easiest things to do. Even under the best of conditions, they would have had to resort to boat operations which is a time and labour intensive task to say the least...to say nothing of downright dangerous even when the deck is not stacked against you.

And the deck certainly would have been stacked against anyone trying to rescue the 1500 to 1600 people still trapped on the sinking ship.

This is not to say that the attempt wouldn't have been worthwhile. If the Californian was as close as Captain Lord's critics assert, it's conceivable that they could have made a difference by fishing swimmers out of the water befor they froze to death. Whether the numbers be one, fifty or a couple of hundred, it would have been a major improvement over zero.

If the ships were as far apart as Captain Lord's defenders assert, the effort, though futile, still would have spared Captain Lord a lot of public censure.

A couple of links to help you understand the problems. One is an article wrote by Tracy Smith, Erik Wood and myself which was published on ET last September;

The Californian Incident, A Reality Check

A critical analysis of the SS Californian’s role in Titanic’s sinking, reassessing the potential and limits of its rescue capability.

www.encyclopedia-titanica.org

Scroll down to The Time Factor

Also, Dave Gittens outstanding website at Titanic Navigation and South Australian Cruising

On the Titanic Menu, scroll down to and click on Saved by Californian?

I hope this helps.

 

[Maureen Zottoli]

Kyle,

I agree with what Mike posted. And Mike has provided some great places online that are available to read information by some very objective people on the topic.

Maureen.

 

[Mark Baber]

What if the ships did come

Ships, plural, Kyle? Are you asking specifically about Californian, or are you asking what would have happened if any of the ships on the North Atlantic that night had been able to arrive earlier than Carpathia did?

 

[christopher marshall]

Hi i thourght i just add my own oppion to this. I don't know if any of you are aware of the sinking of the republic a few years before. There did the passanger transfer to anouther ship and it took the officers a good day to complete between the two vessel as it was an heavyly exensive task lowering and sailing to the other side. As well i think if the californion was as close as people say then it is possible for her to get to titanic but this shall never be known sadly. Titanic was a state of the art ship and it would of been posiible but i dont think it would with the length of time in which it took the gient to sink to transfer all pasanger's to anouther ship which is a shame.

 

[Matt Pereira]

Kyle, If a ship could get to Titanic sooner than what they did you would have the problem of transfering passengers from a ship sinking and going down by the bow to another ship. Not to mention that all the passengers and crew being evacuated from the Titanic would have been more than the rescue ships could handle cause I remember reading somewheres that the Carpathia with the some 700 odd suvivors was a crowding situation. Might be wrong about that and if I am I appoligize for it.

 

[Michael H. Standart]

You all might want to check the links I posted above. The Republic incident is one I'm familier with and it should be noted that the effort to transfer the passengers and crew to the Florida was an all night evolution. It was extremely fortunate that the Republic lasted as long as she did. However, Titanic didn't even come close to having that sort of time.

Regarding how close Californian was, a lot of what's out there suffers from one side or the other in effect trying to cook the books to make it look as if she was either closer or more distant then she actually was. As far as I'm concerned, Dave Gittins has penned the most objective analysis of that much and the most realistic scenerio of what might have been had Californian attempted to get to the Titanic in a timely manner.

 

[Matt Pereira]

Michael, I would have to agree with you there. That was the reasion for me to just stop trying to prove the Californian was closer than she claimed to be mainly due to the fact as stated it still took her time to make her way from her position to the wreck site. Would probably arrive after everyone or the majority of everyone had died that was in the water.

 

[Michael H. Standart]

Unfortunately, Matt, you still run into the odd bloke who believes that the Californian could have charged in like the cavalry for a spectacular last minute save. Professional mariners who understand the problems as well as most historians know better but some myths just won't die.

Which doesn't mean she shouldn't have tried, but one needs to be realistic about the end result. It would have been horrific no matter what.

 

[Matt Pereira]

Always will be the few that belive the what if`s thinking that a head on collision would have prevented her sinking or the Californian could have saved all. I just have this feeling that in either case the end result would be simmilar. I just dont see the Titanic surviving a head on collision even considering how she would crumple back to the #4 compartment but there would be damage all up and down the length of the ship in my oppinion due to the forward motion of the ship and all that mass trying to keep moving but is being forced to stop quickly. Wont stop people from beliving it but oh well. Like with anything you run into people that have a certain arrogance that they know all or more than you and all they did was just see a movie.

 

[Michael H. Standart]

>>I just dont see the Titanic surviving a head on collision even considering how she would crumple back to the #4<<

So long as that last bulkhead wasn't compromised, it wouldn't be an issue in and of itself. With the rest of the bow punched in, there wouldn't be anything to flood. As to whether or not the ship would have survived, you've touched on an issue which occured to me years ago. Edward Wilding was of the opinion that the ship would have survived, but with all the racking damage doing God knows what to the plates and the rivets, I'm not placing any bets on it.

 

[Matt Pereira]

That is what I am thinking. A collision of that magnitute head on would surely have popped rivets if not caused hull seperations from the bulkheads. Isnt exactly known what would happen but it is one that has to be thought about. Me personally I see the structure being compromised in some form or another. She might have floated longer than she did but I feel she would have eventually sunk before being towed or make way to New York and IF she did make it after that I am sure it would be cheaper to just scrap her out than try to repair her cause who knows what structural damage would have been done. Titanics collision with the sea floor showing atleast two bends or breaks in the keel under the aft end of the forward well deck and under the forward expansion joint is any evidence I would think the head on collision would have seen simmilar damage after all the mud is softer than the ice she encountered. But then theres that little thing of weight. Being full of water she would have more weight than she would have running into the iceberg.

 

[christopher marshall]

True. I agree there were you guys are comeing from as it isent good practice to suderly charge to the scene when one ships already sunk the best idea would to be safety first. I agree with Captain Rostron for trying to get every head of steam to race to titanic which off course she actual developed more engine powere then her actual design speed by atleast a knot. In regards to the titanic histting head on. This is a brillent question in regards to the titanic historans due to the fact many say she survive and have atleast 100 feet of external and internal damage to her hull sub structure. Althought titanic was traveling at 21 to 22 knot's when she went into the iceberg there is alot of mathmatica equation wich you could work out like the force of impact if she hit head on. I agree is well that if it didhappan white star line could have a new bow section ordered and added into place like they did with the survic in 1907 or 1909. when she hit lizard point and got hard and fast. But this is a question which for years people have been asking would she sink. You have to remember that titanic was taking tons of fresh ocean water a secend into account and the rate of velocity into account. You would have to think about the bulkheads as look what happand to the britanic when she had an explosion it jamed a main bulkhead which this could stop titanic bulkheads working properly and compramize the hull safety as well in regards to the keel the olympic when she had the incident with the hawke in 1911 the directors were worryed tha her keel aca the skelition of the shp was broke meaning they woudnt get a new sea worthy certificate

 

[Matt Pereira]

Christopher, You are correct about White Star could have ordered a new bow section to be replaceing the crumpled up one but I would think with all that mass of Titanic moving at the rate she was colliding with a solid mass bringing her speed from 21 1/2 - 22 knots down to 0 knots in a quick span she would have crumpled but I theorize that there would be damage up and down the length of the ship. Be it the keel getting bent or the keel snapping in one or two places. The wreck has two snaps/bends in the keel with her collision from the ocean floor which I will admit isnt the same as colliding with an iceberg cause with her filled up with water she would have more mass and was traveling at a faster rate of speed some has theorized. But a head on collision I feel would have caused major damage that might cost more to repair than it would to possibly just scrap her out.

The S.S. Survic had a GRT of 12,531 and a service speed of 13.5 Knots. Now Titanic had a GRT of 46,328 and a service speed of 21 knots. It isnt exactly easy to compare the two ships considering Titanic had more tonnage behind her at a faste speed so a head on collision would have been worse for the Titanic than it could have been for the Survic which had less tonnage to her and a slower service speed.

I have looked at pictures and she looked to be in good shape sitting on the rocks and still looked to be in good shape when they used dynamite to seperate the bow and stern. Titanic would have been a different situation though

 

[Mark Baber]

The S.S. Survic had a GRT...

Ummm...it's Suevic, not Survic, and details of her grounding and salvage appear here.