Let's assume there were a ship to reach Titanic in time. What would have changed? I know that it took lots of time to lower lifeboats. Then lifeboats should have transferred passengers to another ship, and come back for the next group. How this next group could have been loaded to the boats? Could have they used a gangway for doing this? Would there be enough time to save more lives? Thank you.
What if there were a ship to come to Titanic side in time
- Thread starter Yana
- Start date
Michael H. Standart
Member
Tracy Smith, Captain Erik Wood and I examined this in an article we wrote on the Californian several years ago. See https://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/californian-incident.html
See also http://www.titanicebook.com/californian.html by Dave Gittins.
See also http://www.titanicebook.com/californian.html by Dave Gittins.
Michael H. Standart
Member
>>If there were enough lifeboats at Titanic, would they have had enough time to load them with the passengers and safely lower them to the ocean? Thank you.<<
In my opinion, no.
The ship sank in two hours and forty minutes and of the twenty boats they had, they only launched 18 successfully. The last two floated off as the ship went down.
The thing is that if they had enough boats, there would have been no good reason not to fill them all with anybody who came along so it still would have resulted in more lives saved. Even more could have been saved if they had started to evacuate the ship sooner then they actually did.
In my opinion, no.
The ship sank in two hours and forty minutes and of the twenty boats they had, they only launched 18 successfully. The last two floated off as the ship went down.
The thing is that if they had enough boats, there would have been no good reason not to fill them all with anybody who came along so it still would have resulted in more lives saved. Even more could have been saved if they had started to evacuate the ship sooner then they actually did.
The only trouble is that some lifeboats and their passengers were more willing to go back for survivors than others - some were intent on rowing as far away as possible.
There certainly wouldn't have been enough lifeboat seats in any case by far, even if they had all been launched successfully and filled to the brim, but certainly many more lives could have been saved.
Cheers,
Adam.
There certainly wouldn't have been enough lifeboat seats in any case by far, even if they had all been launched successfully and filled to the brim, but certainly many more lives could have been saved.
Cheers,
Adam.
Jim Currie
Member
Hello Yanna!
Theoretically.. yes! Given the prevailing conditions during the early hours of April 15; it would most certainly have been possible for every living soul to have been transferred from Titanic to another ship. However... and it's a big 'however'...it would depend entirely on the type of rescue ship. Lets suppose it was in fact Carpathia or a ship like her.
In some photographs of survivors I have seen.. it shows side-doors in Carpathia's hull. These are very large water tight double door entries for gangways.
To create a rescue scene.. we have to change a few things.
First: Carpathia is the ship approaching Titanic at or near midnight. For the previous 20 minutes; both ships have been in contact and between them, have designed a passenger transfer plan. The plan consists of the rescue ship approaching Titanic and stopping close-to her...say about 200 yards away.
As Carpathia approaches Titanic, she swings-out all her own lifeboats and fully crews as as many as possible. She also opens her side doors ready to receive survivors.
All her own passengers are awakend and moved well clear of the entries but distributed evenly over the ship. In the meantime; The Titanic boats are made ready as normal. However, the boats are each pre-loaded with about 40 passengers.. all have been informed of the plan! The remainder are arranged in groups to facilitate loading of lifeboats in an orderly manner.
As soon as Carpathia is in position and stopped,she launches her empty lifeboats. These head across the 200 yard gap to Titanic. In the meantime, Titanic's first wave of survivors is in the water and starts heading for Carpathia.
On the way, they are passed by Carpathia's boats heading for Titanic's gangway doors.
The boats from each ship arrive at their respective destinations about the same time. The first load of survivors is unloaded onto Carpathia and Titanic's empty boats head back. At the same time, the boats from Carpathia are loaded with Titanic survivors and head back to Carpathia. Two trips of Titanic's boats would transfer 1800 souls leaving 428 people to be transferred by Carpathia's boats.
An undermanned ship's lifeboat would make about 2 knots in conditions of flat calm... that's 101 feet a minute, meaning it would take about 6 minutes to make the trip between ships. Each lifeboat would be unloaded as it arrived at Carpathia. This would take about 5 minutes. So in theory; a sort of conveyor system could be quickly set up. Boat leaves Titanic and is back alongside her for more passengers about 20 minutes later. They could also have rigged an endless line between the two ships and used Carpathia's winches to pull boat-loads of people across the intervening space. Empty boats being attached to it for the return journey. Lots to play with here!
JC
Theoretically.. yes! Given the prevailing conditions during the early hours of April 15; it would most certainly have been possible for every living soul to have been transferred from Titanic to another ship. However... and it's a big 'however'...it would depend entirely on the type of rescue ship. Lets suppose it was in fact Carpathia or a ship like her.
In some photographs of survivors I have seen.. it shows side-doors in Carpathia's hull. These are very large water tight double door entries for gangways.
To create a rescue scene.. we have to change a few things.
First: Carpathia is the ship approaching Titanic at or near midnight. For the previous 20 minutes; both ships have been in contact and between them, have designed a passenger transfer plan. The plan consists of the rescue ship approaching Titanic and stopping close-to her...say about 200 yards away.
As Carpathia approaches Titanic, she swings-out all her own lifeboats and fully crews as as many as possible. She also opens her side doors ready to receive survivors.
All her own passengers are awakend and moved well clear of the entries but distributed evenly over the ship. In the meantime; The Titanic boats are made ready as normal. However, the boats are each pre-loaded with about 40 passengers.. all have been informed of the plan! The remainder are arranged in groups to facilitate loading of lifeboats in an orderly manner.
As soon as Carpathia is in position and stopped,she launches her empty lifeboats. These head across the 200 yard gap to Titanic. In the meantime, Titanic's first wave of survivors is in the water and starts heading for Carpathia.
On the way, they are passed by Carpathia's boats heading for Titanic's gangway doors.
The boats from each ship arrive at their respective destinations about the same time. The first load of survivors is unloaded onto Carpathia and Titanic's empty boats head back. At the same time, the boats from Carpathia are loaded with Titanic survivors and head back to Carpathia. Two trips of Titanic's boats would transfer 1800 souls leaving 428 people to be transferred by Carpathia's boats.
An undermanned ship's lifeboat would make about 2 knots in conditions of flat calm... that's 101 feet a minute, meaning it would take about 6 minutes to make the trip between ships. Each lifeboat would be unloaded as it arrived at Carpathia. This would take about 5 minutes. So in theory; a sort of conveyor system could be quickly set up. Boat leaves Titanic and is back alongside her for more passengers about 20 minutes later. They could also have rigged an endless line between the two ships and used Carpathia's winches to pull boat-loads of people across the intervening space. Empty boats being attached to it for the return journey. Lots to play with here!
JC
Stefan Fordham
Member
You must remember that one of the reasons the boats weren't fully filled is that there simply wasn't enough time to wait around for passangers to come along.
Take Murdoch at lifeboat 1. He loaded it with 12 people, and then after waiting a while, he decided to lower it away as he couldn't wait any longer; the ship was sinking fast and there were still several boats to be launched.
Take Murdoch at lifeboat 1. He loaded it with 12 people, and then after waiting a while, he decided to lower it away as he couldn't wait any longer; the ship was sinking fast and there were still several boats to be launched.
Jim Currie
Member
The 'not enough time to load boats' moment came almost at the end. However; they were also throwing discretion to the wind and loading the boats fully as time moved on.
JC
JC
It shouldn't have come to that though. The officers knew the severity of the situation, even if the passengers didn't want to accept it. If they wouldn't get in the lifeboats voluntarily, they should have been forced to get in there, even if it meant literally being thrown into them, as a few passengers eventually were.
If you're short of lifeboats in the first place, you don't lower a boat with a capacity of 40 with 12 people, or a boat with a capacity of 65 with less than half of that.
Cheers,
Adam.
If you're short of lifeboats in the first place, you don't lower a boat with a capacity of 40 with 12 people, or a boat with a capacity of 65 with less than half of that.
Cheers,
Adam.
Jim Currie
Member
The problem seems to have been that there was too much indecision on the part of some of the wives and daughters.
There was also the very serious problem of lowering boats full of people using manila falls. Modern boats have single point lowering systems using very flexible steel wire ropes.
According to many of the crew, including Pitman; they thought the ship would not sink. There was little urgency until it was too late!
In 1912, you didn't man- handle a lady unless it was in sheer desparation.. nothing seems to have changed!
Ard.
There was also the very serious problem of lowering boats full of people using manila falls. Modern boats have single point lowering systems using very flexible steel wire ropes.
According to many of the crew, including Pitman; they thought the ship would not sink. There was little urgency until it was too late!
In 1912, you didn't man- handle a lady unless it was in sheer desparation.. nothing seems to have changed!
Ard.
Stefan Fordham
Member
You seem to be quite knowledgeable, Jim, so I need to ask you something. Do any ships these days actually have the row boats as lifeboats like Titanic did? I understand that cruise ships have those big orange ones, but do any cargo or oil tanker ships not have motorised boats? Please ignore my ignorance.
Thanks in advance.
Thanks in advance.
Michael H. Standart
Member
Stefan, except for some really old ships, just about everything in service now has a motor in it. Even a coastal vessel with something which is barely more then a punt is easily fitted with an outboard motor and a tank of petrol. The last time I saw a ship with lifeboats which had to be rowed, she was a museum vessel.
Stefan Fordham
Member
Thanks for that, Michael.
Now to go back on topic, the Titanic was labeled as "unsinkable" or at least that's what the majority of the crew thought at the time, so that's why I suppose they weren't in a hurry to load the boats.
Now to go back on topic, the Titanic was labeled as "unsinkable" or at least that's what the majority of the crew thought at the time, so that's why I suppose they weren't in a hurry to load the boats.
Jim Currie
Member
Hello Stefan.
In 1912; every British merchant ship (and probably American, French and German ones too)was bound by law to carry lifeboats. Thre ere very specific rules set out by the then Merchant Shipping Acts.
There were some ships which did have motor lifeboats but these were few and far between. In the main: lifboats were equipped with a complete set of oars, spare oar(s) and a steering oar. In addition; they were equipped with a mast and a sail.
JC
In 1912; every British merchant ship (and probably American, French and German ones too)was bound by law to carry lifeboats. Thre ere very specific rules set out by the then Merchant Shipping Acts.
There were some ships which did have motor lifeboats but these were few and far between. In the main: lifboats were equipped with a complete set of oars, spare oar(s) and a steering oar. In addition; they were equipped with a mast and a sail.
JC
Thank you, everybody. Jim, you mentioned Titanic gangway doors, but Titanic was sinking. Does it mean that eventually gangways door would not have been available for the use simply because they were under the water?
I have been to Ross Sea with Kapitan Khlebnikov, Russian ice breaker. They used a few ways to get us to the land or the ice. Sometimes they used helicopters, sometimes they used zodiacs, and sometimes they parked at packed ice and used gangways, but when we reached Ross Ice Shelf the landing was performed by a different means. The helicopters could not have been used because of the bad weather, of course zodiacs and gangways were out of the question too. So they came with an original decision: they loaded people in the cargo containers and lowered us to the Ice Shelf. Only one man from Austria refused this arrangements. He said he was not a cargo, but a person
His wife told me he simply was scarred.
I am telling you such a long story in order to show that sometimes some unusual decision could make a difference. Of course for us it was only a difference between putting feet at the famous Ice Shelf, but sometimes not ordinary solution could make a difference between life and death.
So, were there something at Titanic that could have made the lowering lifeboats easier and faster. Should have they been lowered without people, only with a few members of the crew to row, and then pick up the passengers from these gangway doors? I am sure this way of loading would have been not so scary for the passengers, and maybe more would have gone in.
Thank you.
I have been to Ross Sea with Kapitan Khlebnikov, Russian ice breaker. They used a few ways to get us to the land or the ice. Sometimes they used helicopters, sometimes they used zodiacs, and sometimes they parked at packed ice and used gangways, but when we reached Ross Ice Shelf the landing was performed by a different means. The helicopters could not have been used because of the bad weather, of course zodiacs and gangways were out of the question too. So they came with an original decision: they loaded people in the cargo containers and lowered us to the Ice Shelf. Only one man from Austria refused this arrangements. He said he was not a cargo, but a person
His wife told me he simply was scarred. I am telling you such a long story in order to show that sometimes some unusual decision could make a difference. Of course for us it was only a difference between putting feet at the famous Ice Shelf, but sometimes not ordinary solution could make a difference between life and death.
So, were there something at Titanic that could have made the lowering lifeboats easier and faster. Should have they been lowered without people, only with a few members of the crew to row, and then pick up the passengers from these gangway doors? I am sure this way of loading would have been not so scary for the passengers, and maybe more would have gone in.
Thank you.
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