What Old Reliable Did Next


Jamie Bryant

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I'm currently reading a fascinating book at the moment entitled "The Riddle of the Titanic" full of conspiracy and controversy. Highly recomend it. Anyway in the Olympic chapter I learned that just months after the sinking, the Olympic collided with England! (the tip of Land's End)

PS: Why didn't Ismay incorporate the shelter on A deck from Titanic? Was he worried they would look that it would bring back old memories.

Another thing why do most people on this message board hate Bruce Ismay? Because he got off the ship Jamie ! Well I bet that had he gone down with the ship then he would have been regarded as a hero. Remember this, it was Pirrie and Andrews who designed and built her, Smith who sailed her, Ismay simply provided the money. And who can forget Jp Morgan who gave Ismay the direct orders. Ismay was simply Morgan's puppet and also a good Chief Executive. It was not Ismay who misplaced the binoculars, not Ismay who took the decision to send her at full ahead into an ice field and it was not Ismay who kept steerage passengers trapped below, and shot passengers. Ismay is just everyone's scapegoat. He was doing what anyone else would do: trying to make his and his Father's original business successful. He even came back in 1933 to try and revive the declining company, even when Morgan had long gone! Finally how can you all believe Mrs Lyon's comments (about over hearing that conversation) but you cannot believe people who said that the Grand Staircase rose up out of the sinking ship. Just give the man a break and remember other key individuals who can share the overall blame. The man suffered enough what with his horse being DQ'ed from the 1913 Derby, just because it won.
Thank You
Jamie Bryant
 

Mark Baber

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And who can forget Jp Morgan who gave Ismay the direct orders. Ismay was simply Morgan's puppet

Hello, Jamie---

What "direct orders" are you referring to here? And in what sense do you think that JBI was Morgan's "puppet"?

The man suffered enough what with his horse being DQ'ed from the 1913 Derby, just because it won.

That was Bower Ismay, not Bruce. Look here.
 
Dec 2, 2000
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>>I'm currently reading a fascinating book at the moment entitled "The Riddle of the Titanic" full of conspiracy and controversy. <<

And full of bovine excrement as well. The ship switch never happened. You might want to check out some prior threads we've had on this.

And J.P. Morgan had nothing to do with the day-to-day operation of the ship. Nor did he have any reason to. He was a money man, not a mariner.
 

Jamie Bryant

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Mark, The reason Morgan aquired the White Star Line was to break Cunard's domination of the trans-atlantic crossing. Therefore as managing director, the pressure was on Ismay's shoulders for the line to preform. Also what do you think the reason was for having the horse DQ'ed? Because it was his fault Titanic went down...

Michael, I never said that I believed it, I simply said it was a good book. I am quite aware that 401 was found on her propellar blade. And do you think Ismay was a mariner? Morgan had nothing to do with the operation of the ship and neither did Ismay. Smith did yet he doesn't take his deserved share of the blame. Morgan (even with all the money) had a lot riding on this, if Titanic was regarded a flop by turning up late then potential revenue would have been lost to Cunard, even though her main priority was luxury.
 
Dec 2, 2000
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Jamie, the book may be a cracking good read, but in terms of actual history, it's fraud and Gardiner knows it. See This Thread for an earlier discussion on the matter.

>>Morgan had nothing to do with the operation of the ship and neither did Ismay.<<

Don't be so sure about Ismay. Owners are considered something of an aquired taste by mariners because they have a nagging habit of trying to micromanage things. Ismay may have done nothing overt, but you can bet he was whispering a few "suggestions" in E.J.'s ear.

>>Morgan (even with all the money) had a lot riding on this,<<

Yes he did. The same can be said for the owners and officers of competing lines. What of it?

>>if Titanic was regarded a flop by turning up late then potential revenue would have been lost to Cunard, even though her main priority was luxury.<<

And where did anyone say that Titanic was in any danger of coming in late? Don't forget that the speculation at the time was that she might come in early.
 
Dec 2, 2000
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>>Also what do you think the reason was for having the horse DQ'ed? Because it was his fault Titanic went down... <<

Did you miss the part about the horse being owned by Bower Ismay and the link that Mark offered? I'd suggest you read it.
 

Dave Gittins

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Apr 11, 2001
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Further to Mark's information, the horse was disqualifed for two pieces of blatant interference. The rough riding was so obvious that punters quickly placed bets on Aboyeur as soon as the protest was announced.

Racing historians have questions about the affair, but they are purely racing matters. The protest was put in by the stewards, who rescinded the 'all clear' after the finish. There was talk of enmity between Bower Ismay and a steward and there was real enmity between the jockeys.

All this is to be found in The Biographical Encyclopedia of British Flat Racing.
 

Jamie Bryant

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I think that we are going off record a bit here. My main point is that Ismay should not have been made everyone's scapegoat. It wasn't entirely his fault.
 
Jan 5, 2001
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Hi,

I realise I am somewhat late:

PS: Why didn't Ismay incorporate the shelter on A deck from Titanic? Was he worried they would look that it would bring back old memories.

My own personal feeling is that there was plenty of enclosed deckspace on Olympic's B-deck, even after 1928. I doubt making the Olympic look even more like her sister would have been a good idea -- even if she was relatively 'Titanicized' in the 1912-13 refitting. The installation of such a screen was considered later in her career, and rejected due to the cost -- though I suspect that there were other reasons.

Best regards,

Mark.
 

Jeremy Lee

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Titanic's A Deck shelter was installed due to feedback about sea spray on the Olympic, so does that mean after the sinking, no one complained of sea spray again on the Olympic?
 
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Hi,

'Titanic's A Deck shelter was installed due to feedback about sea spray on the Olympic,

Was it? Do you have a source?

so does that mean after the sinking, no one complained of sea spray again on the Olympic?'

I don't recall reading any pre-sinking complaints. Perhaps my memory fails me.

Best regards,

Mark.
 

Nigel Bryant

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From what other researchers have said about this topic the real reason why Titanic received a screen on her promenade deck was because her original enclosed deck was deleted for the preference of larger and additional suites on deck B. I really think that the "sea spray" thing is a myth that has grown through time to making the Titanic sound more luxurious than her sister when in reality it was just a slight re-arrangement and only through the passage of time people have misconceived the reason for its installation. Just another thing to boost on how more luxurious the Titanic is over the Olympic, when clearly it was not. For more info on this check out the Ismay Screen thread in the technical section.

Nigel
 
B

Brian R Peterson

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Hi Nigel,

I have always held the same opinion for the addition of the enclosed A-Deck on Titanic, I never thought it to have been added for the sake of luxury more for convenience it would seem to make the most sense because as you said, the original enclosed B-Deck promenade was reserved for the Promenade Suites.

Are there any photos from the private promenade looking into the First Class entrance vestibule, I know there is at least one known photo taken looking into the Starboard promenade from the First Class entrance vestibule, after seeing the beautiful gates on the gangway doors in GOTA it would be spectacular to see a pre-sinking image of the area

Best Regards,

Brian
 

Nigel Bryant

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Hi Brain,

The areas outside the private promenade suites had the appearance similar to the enclosed deck above. With addition of the new bulkhead separating the entrance ways and private decks, Titanic's window and door arrangement (the wall facing the gangways) was slightly altered to allow better ingress for boarding passengers. The original design on Olympic was two single doors and three windows I think (I'm going of memory here) but this was changed on Titanic with two large double doors with a single arch window in between. Daniel Klistorner did a neat illustration of this area using an Olympic photograph and altered it to appear what Titanic's layout would have looked like.

Here is the link, Daniel did a really awesome job!
https://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/discus/messages/5919/52164.html?1043396347

I think this thread needs to be added to the techie section ;-)

Hope this helps,

Nigel
 

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