What REALLY happened with Chief Baker Charles Joughin?

[chrismireya]

Many people think that they know the story of Charles Joughin, the Chief Baker aboard Titanic. They know the story that he (and others) told about how he drank during the sinking and went down with the ship. They know how he claimed to have swam for "hours" in the water. They know how he claimed to have tried to climb aboard Collapsible B but was unable to (possibly due to there just not being any room). Joughin accounts that he held on to either the boat or a friend's hand until another boat rescued him.

There are problems with his story. Namely, he claims to have survived what was essentially non-survivable -- a swim for hours in the hypothermia-inducing conditions of the North Atlantic. If this portion of his story is exaggerated or an outright lie, it begs the question about the accuracy of other parts of his story. After combing through the inquiries regarding the sinking, I just can't find anyone who corroborated specific parts of Joughin's account.

So, what do you think happened?
What are the most likely scenarios (using the accepted timeline and testimonies of others) that would account for Joughin's own "night to be remembered?"

I did find something that I found interesting this week. It was something stated by a completely different survivor -- an interesting and sometimes overlooked Second Class female passenger named Imanita Parrish Shelley. Please bear with me as I get to the point.

Imanita Parrish Shelley : Titanic Survivor

Imanita Shelley never testified in-person at the inquiries. There aren't many statements that I can find from the press in 1912 (and afterward) that were attributed to her. However, there is an interesting sworn affidavit that was offered as evidence on Day 18 the United States Senate Inquiry.

TIP | United States Senate Inquiry | Day 18 | Testimony of Imanita Shelley (Second Class Passenger, SS Titanic)

Electronic - Fully Searchable - transcripts of the complete U.S. Senate and British Board of Trade inquiries, and reports, into the sinking of the S.S. 'Titanic.'

www.titanicinquiry.org

For the most part, her affidavit is almost comical. It reads of a 24-year-old woman who was deeply disappointed in several aspects of her voyage aboard Titanic even before (and after) the sinking.

Mrs. Imanita Parrish Shelley spoke of buying the "best second class accommodation sold by" the White Star Line for Titanic's maiden voyage. Yet, to her apparent grief (and the grief of her mother), they were stuck in what she described as a "small cabin many decks down in the ship, which was so small that it could only be called a cell."

She described a tiny and cold room so small that it was "impossible to open a regulation steamer trunk in said cabin" and lamented that "it was impossible for a third person to enter said cabin unless both occupants first of all crawled into their bunks." After repeated complaints to the point of demanding assistance in the matter, it seemed like the crew was simply ignoring her.

So, Mrs. Shelley continued to complain repeatedly. In fact, she visited the purser ELEVEN TIMES to address this matter. Eventually, she stated that if she found that everyone ignored her issues and wouldn't act on her behalf, she realized she would "have to wait until reaching America for redress, but most assuredly would claim damages if she lived to reach her native land."

After repeated complaints to the point of demanding to speak with the Captain, this woman and her mother were finally transferred to the Second Class room she had actually booked. Yet, this room had problems too. According to Mrs. Shelley, instead of the room that was promised when purchased, this new room was largely unfurnished and just as cold as the tiny "cell" she had been in previously. So, she complained about this too.

She said that they were eventually informed that the heat had only reached two or three rooms -- making them unbearably hot. So, the purser ordered for the heat to be turned off. Apparently, this was part of the "grin and bear it" nature of a maiden voyage. However, Mrs. Shelley wasn't happy.

In fact, after she was rescued by the crew of Carpathia, she said that she asked around about the temperature and conditions of the rooms of steerage survivors. This strikes me as strangely amusing given the circumstances. Apparently, Mrs. Imanita Shelley was serious about issues aboard Titanic even after Titanic was at the bottom of the North Atlantic.

So, what does this have to do with Chief Baker Charles Joughin?

The sworn testimony (in this affidavit entered into evidence at the Senate Inquiry is remarkably detailed. It reflects a very clear recollection of the ship and even the events before, during and after the sinking.

One of the things that Mrs. Shelley accounts for is the lifeboat into which she was assigned. After her mother was thrown into Boat 12, Mrs. Shelley was forced to jump into the boat herself.

This is the crux of what this woman who was having a lousy voyage has to do with Chief Baker Joughin. In her affadavit, she mentions her experience in the lifeboat. After she was safely aboard that lifeboat, she mentioned the crewmen who were in that boat. The affidavit reads: "That two men of the ship's crew manned this boat at the time of launching, one of whom said he was a stoker and the other a ship's baker." She also mentions of a "crazed Italian" who jumped into the boat.

Now, she doesn't name who this "baker" might have been. However, when we read about all of the bakers aboard Titanic, none of the few surviving bakers were assigned to or picked up by Lifeboat 12.

Bakers

titanic.fandom.com

However, there is a point in which Charles Joughin's own testimony coincides with Lifeboat 12. Lifeboat 12 eventually met up with Lifeboat 14 and Collapsible D. Some passengers and crew were transferred into Lifeboat 12 -- now with between 40-45 passengers. However, those aboard Lifeboat 12 later heard the Lightoller's whistle from the overturned Collapsible B. So, Lifeboat 12 (along with Lifeboat 4) goes and rescues those passengers from Collapsible B.

Titanic Lifeboat No. 12 | Encyclopedia Titanica

Titanic survivors in lifeboat 12

www.encyclopedia-titanica.org

Who was (supposedly) in the water next to Collapsible B? Charles Joughin.

This makes me wonder if Charles Joughin was actually the "baker" mentioned by Imanita Parrish Shelley who was in Lifeboat 12. Is it possible that Joughin was in the boat all along -- and made up his fanciful and spectacular story of survival somewhere in the darkness between Lifeboat 12 and rescue aboard the Carpathia and his testimony to the inquiries? As far as I can tell, Mrs. Shelley is the only person -- with a vivid and specific recollection -- who mentions a "baker" in her lifeboat. This is the same lifeboat that I believe that Joughin was eventually brought aboard Carpathia from.

Is this a possible explanation for what really happened with Charles Joughin during that night?

 

[Steven Christian]

Many people think that they know the story of Charles Joughin, the Chief Baker aboard Titanic. They know the story that he (and others) told about how he drank during the sinking and went down with the ship. They know how he claimed to have swam for "hours" in the water. They know how he claimed to have tried to climb aboard Collapsible B but was unable to (possibly due to there just not being any room). Joughin accounts that he held on to either the boat or a friend's hand until another boat rescued him.

There are problems with his story. Namely, he claims to have survived what was essentially non-survivable -- a swim for hours in the hypothermia-inducing conditions of the North Atlantic. If this portion of his story is exaggerated or an outright lie, it begs the question about the accuracy of other parts of his story. After combing through the inquiries regarding the sinking, I just can't find anyone who corroborated specific parts of Joughin's account.

So, what do you think happened?
What are the most likely scenarios (using the accepted timeline and testimonies of others) that would account for Joughin's own "night to be remembered?"

I did find something that I found interesting this week. It was something stated by a completely different survivor -- an interesting and sometimes overlooked Second Class female passenger named Imanita Parrish Shelley. Please bear with me as I get to the point.

Imanita Parrish Shelley : Titanic Survivor

Imanita Shelley never testified in-person at the inquiries. There aren't many statements that I can find from the press in 1912 (and afterward) that were attributed to her. However, there is an interesting sworn affidavit that was offered as evidence on Day 18 the United States Senate Inquiry.

TIP | United States Senate Inquiry | Day 18 | Testimony of Imanita Shelley (Second Class Passenger, SS Titanic)

Electronic - Fully Searchable - transcripts of the complete U.S. Senate and British Board of Trade inquiries, and reports, into the sinking of the S.S. 'Titanic.'

www.titanicinquiry.org

For the most part, her affidavit is almost comical. It reads of a 24-year-old woman who was deeply disappointed in several aspects of her voyage aboard Titanic even before (and after) the sinking.

Mrs. Imanita Parrish Shelley spoke of buying the "best second class accommodation sold by" the White Star Line for Titanic's maiden voyage. Yet, to her apparent grief (and the grief of her mother), they were stuck in what she described as a "small cabin many decks down in the ship, which was so small that it could only be called a cell."

She described a tiny and cold room so small that it was "impossible to open a regulation steamer trunk in said cabin" and lamented that "it was impossible for a third person to enter said cabin unless both occupants first of all crawled into their bunks." After repeated complaints to the point of demanding assistance in the matter, it seemed like the crew was simply ignoring her.

So, Mrs. Shelley continued to complain repeatedly. In fact, she visited the purser ELEVEN TIMES to address this matter. Eventually, she stated that if she found that everyone ignored her issues and wouldn't act on her behalf, she realized she would "have to wait until reaching America for redress, but most assuredly would claim damages if she lived to reach her native land."

After repeated complaints to the point of demanding to speak with the Captain, this woman and her mother were finally transferred to the Second Class room she had actually booked. Yet, this room had problems too. According to Mrs. Shelley, instead of the room that was promised when purchased, this new room was largely unfurnished and just as cold as the tiny "cell" she had been in previously. So, she complained about this too.

She said that they were eventually informed that the heat had only reached two or three rooms -- making them unbearably hot. So, the purser ordered for the heat to be turned off. Apparently, this was part of the "grin and bear it" nature of a maiden voyage. However, Mrs. Shelley wasn't happy.

In fact, after she was rescued by the crew of Carpathia, she said that she asked around about the temperature and conditions of the rooms of steerage survivors. This strikes me as strangely amusing given the circumstances. Apparently, Mrs. Imanita Shelley was serious about issues aboard Titanic even after Titanic was at the bottom of the North Atlantic.

So, what does this have to do with Chief Baker Charles Joughin?

The sworn testimony (in this affidavit entered into evidence at the Senate Inquiry is remarkably detailed. It reflects a very clear recollection of the ship and even the events before, during and after the sinking.

One of the things that Mrs. Shelley accounts for is the lifeboat into which she was assigned. After her mother was thrown into Boat 12, Mrs. Shelley was forced to jump into the boat herself.

This is the crux of what this woman who was having a lousy voyage has to do with Chief Baker Joughin. In her affadavit, she mentions her experience in the lifeboat. After she was safely aboard that lifeboat, she mentioned the crewmen who were in that boat. The affidavit reads: "That two men of the ship's crew manned this boat at the time of launching, one of whom said he was a stoker and the other a ship's baker." She also mentions of a "crazed Italian" who jumped into the boat.

Now, she doesn't name who this "baker" might have been. However, when we read about all of the bakers aboard Titanic, none of the few surviving bakers were assigned to or picked up by Lifeboat 12.

Bakers

titanic.fandom.com

However, there is a point in which Charles Joughin's own testimony coincides with Lifeboat 12. Lifeboat 12 eventually met up with Lifeboat 14 and Collapsible D. Some passengers and crew were transferred into Lifeboat 12 -- now with between 40-45 passengers. However, those aboard Lifeboat 12 later heard the Lightoller's whistle from the overturned Collapsible B. So, Lifeboat 12 (along with Lifeboat 4) goes and rescues those passengers from Collapsible B.

Titanic Lifeboat No. 12 | Encyclopedia Titanica

Titanic survivors in lifeboat 12

www.encyclopedia-titanica.org

Who was (supposedly) in the water next to Collapsible B? Charles Joughin.

This makes me wonder if Charles Joughin was actually the "baker" mentioned by Imanita Parrish Shelley who was in Lifeboat 12. Is it possible that Joughin was in the boat all along -- and made up his fanciful and spectacular story of survival somewhere in the darkness between Lifeboat 12 and rescue aboard the Carpathia and his testimony to the inquiries? As far as I can tell, Mrs. Shelley is the only person -- with a vivid and specific recollection -- who mentions a "baker" in her lifeboat. This is the same lifeboat that I believe that Joughin was eventually brought aboard Carpathia from.

Is this a possible explanation for what really happened with Charles Joughin during that night?

It's possible. You bring up some good points/research. I don't think anybody or at least none that I know of believed he was in the water for hours. And besides his story we know a lot of claims by others were pretty much just sea stories that were made up. Good post. Thanks for the info. Cheers.

 

[Sam Brannigan]

Many people think that they know the story of Charles Joughin, the Chief Baker aboard Titanic. They know the story that he (and others) told about how he drank during the sinking and went down with the ship. They know how he claimed to have swam for "hours" in the water. They know how he claimed to have tried to climb aboard Collapsible B but was unable to (possibly due to there just not being any room). Joughin accounts that he held on to either the boat or a friend's hand until another boat rescued him.

There are problems with his story. Namely, he claims to have survived what was essentially non-survivable -- a swim for hours in the hypothermia-inducing conditions of the North Atlantic. If this portion of his story is exaggerated or an outright lie, it begs the question about the accuracy of other parts of his story. After combing through the inquiries regarding the sinking, I just can't find anyone who corroborated specific parts of Joughin's account.

So, what do you think happened?
What are the most likely scenarios (using the accepted timeline and testimonies of others) that would account for Joughin's own "night to be remembered?"

I did find something that I found interesting this week. It was something stated by a completely different survivor -- an interesting and sometimes overlooked Second Class female passenger named Imanita Parrish Shelley. Please bear with me as I get to the point.

Imanita Parrish Shelley : Titanic Survivor

Imanita Shelley never testified in-person at the inquiries. There aren't many statements that I can find from the press in 1912 (and afterward) that were attributed to her. However, there is an interesting sworn affidavit that was offered as evidence on Day 18 the United States Senate Inquiry.

TIP | United States Senate Inquiry | Day 18 | Testimony of Imanita Shelley (Second Class Passenger, SS Titanic)

Electronic - Fully Searchable - transcripts of the complete U.S. Senate and British Board of Trade inquiries, and reports, into the sinking of the S.S. 'Titanic.'

www.titanicinquiry.org

For the most part, her affidavit is almost comical. It reads of a 24-year-old woman who was deeply disappointed in several aspects of her voyage aboard Titanic even before (and after) the sinking.

Mrs. Imanita Parrish Shelley spoke of buying the "best second class accommodation sold by" the White Star Line for Titanic's maiden voyage. Yet, to her apparent grief (and the grief of her mother), they were stuck in what she described as a "small cabin many decks down in the ship, which was so small that it could only be called a cell."

She described a tiny and cold room so small that it was "impossible to open a regulation steamer trunk in said cabin" and lamented that "it was impossible for a third person to enter said cabin unless both occupants first of all crawled into their bunks." After repeated complaints to the point of demanding assistance in the matter, it seemed like the crew was simply ignoring her.

So, Mrs. Shelley continued to complain repeatedly. In fact, she visited the purser ELEVEN TIMES to address this matter. Eventually, she stated that if she found that everyone ignored her issues and wouldn't act on her behalf, she realized she would "have to wait until reaching America for redress, but most assuredly would claim damages if she lived to reach her native land."

After repeated complaints to the point of demanding to speak with the Captain, this woman and her mother were finally transferred to the Second Class room she had actually booked. Yet, this room had problems too. According to Mrs. Shelley, instead of the room that was promised when purchased, this new room was largely unfurnished and just as cold as the tiny "cell" she had been in previously. So, she complained about this too.

She said that they were eventually informed that the heat had only reached two or three rooms -- making them unbearably hot. So, the purser ordered for the heat to be turned off. Apparently, this was part of the "grin and bear it" nature of a maiden voyage. However, Mrs. Shelley wasn't happy.

In fact, after she was rescued by the crew of Carpathia, she said that she asked around about the temperature and conditions of the rooms of steerage survivors. This strikes me as strangely amusing given the circumstances. Apparently, Mrs. Imanita Shelley was serious about issues aboard Titanic even after Titanic was at the bottom of the North Atlantic.

So, what does this have to do with Chief Baker Charles Joughin?

The sworn testimony (in this affidavit entered into evidence at the Senate Inquiry is remarkably detailed. It reflects a very clear recollection of the ship and even the events before, during and after the sinking.

One of the things that Mrs. Shelley accounts for is the lifeboat into which she was assigned. After her mother was thrown into Boat 12, Mrs. Shelley was forced to jump into the boat herself.

This is the crux of what this woman who was having a lousy voyage has to do with Chief Baker Joughin. In her affadavit, she mentions her experience in the lifeboat. After she was safely aboard that lifeboat, she mentioned the crewmen who were in that boat. The affidavit reads: "That two men of the ship's crew manned this boat at the time of launching, one of whom said he was a stoker and the other a ship's baker." She also mentions of a "crazed Italian" who jumped into the boat.

Now, she doesn't name who this "baker" might have been. However, when we read about all of the bakers aboard Titanic, none of the few surviving bakers were assigned to or picked up by Lifeboat 12.

Bakers

titanic.fandom.com

However, there is a point in which Charles Joughin's own testimony coincides with Lifeboat 12. Lifeboat 12 eventually met up with Lifeboat 14 and Collapsible D. Some passengers and crew were transferred into Lifeboat 12 -- now with between 40-45 passengers. However, those aboard Lifeboat 12 later heard the Lightoller's whistle from the overturned Collapsible B. So, Lifeboat 12 (along with Lifeboat 4) goes and rescues those passengers from Collapsible B.

Titanic Lifeboat No. 12 | Encyclopedia Titanica

Titanic survivors in lifeboat 12

www.encyclopedia-titanica.org

Who was (supposedly) in the water next to Collapsible B? Charles Joughin.

This makes me wonder if Charles Joughin was actually the "baker" mentioned by Imanita Parrish Shelley who was in Lifeboat 12. Is it possible that Joughin was in the boat all along -- and made up his fanciful and spectacular story of survival somewhere in the darkness between Lifeboat 12 and rescue aboard the Carpathia and his testimony to the inquiries? As far as I can tell, Mrs. Shelley is the only person -- with a vivid and specific recollection -- who mentions a "baker" in her lifeboat. This is the same lifeboat that I believe that Joughin was eventually brought aboard Carpathia from.

Is this a possible explanation for what really happened with Charles Joughin during that night?

Interesting post and theory, thanks!

Ms Shelley would have had a riot on TripAdvisor.com - I reckon the Titanic might have scored a 1/5 hehe. Would have been interesting to see White Star's response

 

[Arun Vajpey]

This is the crux of what this woman who was having a lousy voyage has to do with Chief Baker Joughin. In her affadavit, she mentions her experience in the lifeboat. After she was safely aboard that lifeboat, she mentioned the crewmen who were in that boat. The affidavit reads: "That two men of the ship's crew manned this boat at the time of launching, one of whom said he was a stoker and the other a ship's baker."

This makes me wonder if Charles Joughin was actually the "baker" mentioned by Imanita Parrish Shelley who was in Lifeboat 12.

I do not believe that Joughin was the "baker" in Lifeboat #12 to whom Ms Shelley was referring to; for that matter, there is convincing evidence that Shelly and her mother were themselves not rescued in that lifeboat but on Lifeboat #10, where Joughin was involved in the loading (but did not get on board). As you can see from the list here on ET, the number of people who were confirmed to have been rescued on Lifeboat #12 is still only 16 while in actuality there must have been over twice that number in the boat.

Although in her ET bio it seems "certain" that Imanita Shelley and her mother Lutie Parrish were rescued on Lifeboat #12, this is now disputed following Bill Wormstedt's work in revising Lifeboat lowering times (and hence occupants in some cases) and research by Mike Poirer (see Endnote #362 on p414 of the hardbound edition of OASOG). There was a 3 to 4 foot gap between the ship and the lifeboat into which Shelley and her mother got in and this could only have been Lifeboat #10, which was finally lowered at 01:50 am. AB Frank Evans, who was definitely one of the crew of Lifeboat #10, testified at the American Inquiry about a jumper into his lifeboat who injured Lutie Parrish as well as the difficulty they had in disentangling the lifeboat from its falls when they reached the water. All that indicates that Imanita Shelley and her mother were rescued on Lifeboat #10 and not on #12 like she thoght or still mentioned here on ET.

IMO, Charles Joughin made up a greatly stretched and embellished version of the story of his survival, which nevertheless had elements of truth in it. Most researchers feel that while Joughin was intermittently in the vicinity of the aft port boats for quite a while after 01:00 am, he actually worked with and helped in the loading of only Lifeboat #10. In between his sporadic presence on the port side aft of the boat deck, Joughin probably made a few trips to his cabin to 'fortify' himself with drink; that was probably what contributed to his confusing testimony suggesting that Lifeboat #10 was the first port aft boat to be lowered. That clearly could not have been the case because the Titanic's port list was not very significant when Lifeboat #16 (01:20 am) and #14 (01:25 am) were launched and just noticeable when Lifeboat #12 was lowered at 01:30 am. But the port list was significant even during the loading of Lifeboat #10 and Joughin himself mentioned the '3-foot gap' between the sides of the ship and boat during the process and how he and the others had to toss small children across that gap. Then there was the incident of the woman who almost fell though that gap while boarding; and of course the large gap when Imanita Shelly and Lutie Parrish managed to get in.

There are claims that after Lifeboat #10 was launched, Joughin went back to his cabin for one more drink but personally, I am not convinced that he could have made it that far so late into the sinking. OASOG considers the possibility that Joughin could have been sleeping in a cabin other than the one allocated to him, which was located deep down on E-deck and might have been inaccessible by then. He appears to have gone to the Deck Pantry on A-deck for that additional drink and was still there when he heard 'crash' like something deep inside the ship had buckled and metal was parting. Those sounds were probably the earliest events that led to the break-up of the ship and Joughin said that the lights were still on at that time. As he claimed, he quite likely went aft with rest of the crowd and eventually got on to the far side of the poop deck railing to hang on during the break-up. It would be difficult to verify Joughin's account either way but if he really had managed to hang-on to the railing after the break-up, he must have had quite a thrilling ride during the various maneuvers of the stern section before it sank beneath the sea.

Once in the water, Joughin must have started swimming either indiscriminately or towards the nearby overturned Collapsible B on top of which there were already a few people and more coming. By the time Joughin got to it, it was likely another 6 to 7 minutes because there were several more standing on the upended bottom of the lifeboat by then. Joughin was a diminutive 33 year-old ship's baker who liked his drink and so one can deduce that he was of mediocre physical fitness at best. He most certainly could not have been in the water for longer than 20 minutes and in his semi-inebriated state hypothermia, unconsciousness and death would have occurred more rapidly than expected with continued exposure. As it was, I believe that he managed to reach Collapsible B was although many on board might have been too scared and reluctant to pull him on board, cook Isaac Maynard eventually did.

 

[chrismireya]

Thanks for your input, Arun Vajpey. I haven't read any theories about Imanita Parrish Shelley's lifeboat number being incorrect. In her affidavit, she didn't know her lifeboat's number. I'll certainly look into that. I do think that she was very articulate about her recollections in her affidavit. It would be interesting that she got the "baker" part wrong. However, my point is just that -- her statement about a "baker" being one of the crewmen on her boat.

Chief Baker Joughin was assigned to Lifeboat 13. The events of his questionable (and changing) story from the night are certainly interesting yet also certainly embellished. I'm not sure that I can "trust" much of what he says given his story. Much of his story is based upon what he claimed and hearsay (i.e., what others heard about him).

I certainly don't believe that he was swimming in the water for hours. I'm not entirely certain that he was even in the water at all (let alone as one of the men standing upon Collapsible B). So, in my mind, it's possible that he never truly went down with the ship in the first place.

I'm just looking for alternate theories as to what really happened that night from what we can piece together. I just found it fascinating that Imanita Shelley offered testimony in a sworn affidavit that one of the crew in her lifeboat was a "baker." I can think of no other surviving baker who would make any sense.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

I haven't read any theories about Imanita Parrish Shelley's lifeboat number being incorrect. In her affidavit, she didn't know her lifeboat's number. I'll certainly look into that.

There are a few points that suggest that Imanita Shelley and her mother Lutie Parrish were on Lifeboat #10 and not on Lifeboat #12 as is sometimes considered.

• The two women had to negotiate a significant gap between the sides of the ship and the lifeboat into which they got in. That gap was caused by the port list of the Titanic, which was only just starting when Lifeboat #12 was launched at 01:30 am but had become significant by the time Lifeboat #10 started to load some 12 to 15 minutes later.
• As far as I know, no baker was involved with loading or manning Lifeboat #12; certainly not Joughin.
• Just as Lifeboat #10 started to lower at 01:50 am, a man jumped into the boat, injuring Lute Parrish in the process. Able Seaman Frank Evans, one of the crew in charge of Lifeboat #10, testified at the American Inquiry that this incident happened in his boat.

I just found it fascinating that Imanita Shelley offered testimony in a sworn affidavit that one of the crew in her lifeboat was a "baker." I can think of no other surviving baker who would make any sense.

It might be that Imanita Shelley saw the baker (Joughin himself) helping with the loading of Lifeboat #10 and he might even have given her and her mother a hand to climb on board. Joughin was probably quite voluble doing the loading, thus making an impression on the minds of Shelley and the others in the boat. So, when she saw him alive and well on board the Carpathia later that day, Imanita Shelley could have mistakenly assumed that Joughin was also one of those rescued on her lifeboat. That could have been the reason for her statement about the 'baker' several days later during the testimony.

 

[chrismireya]

There are a few points that suggest that Imanita Shelley and her mother Lutie Parrish were on Lifeboat #10 and not on Lifeboat #12 as is sometimes considered.

• The two women had to negotiate a significant gap between the sides of the ship and the lifeboat into which they got in. That gap was caused by the port list of the Titanic, which was only just starting when Lifeboat #12 was launched at 01:30 am but had become significant by the time Lifeboat #10 started to load some 12 to 15 minutes later.

Thanks for your reply. It's very interesting. Is it possible that there was even a small gap between the deck and other lifeboats? Obviously, most of the lifeboats didn't scrape the side of Titanic as they were lowered (meaning that there was at least a small gap). I suppose that some of those gaps might have seemed like "big fish" gaps to individuals trying to enter a lifeboat that was hanging and getting ready to be lowered. This is particularly true of any moments in which a port list increased.

If so, then there is -- at least a chance -- that Imanita Shelley was seated aboard Lifeboat #12 (as is often included in lists of the lifeboat passengers).

• As far as I know, no baker was involved with loading or manning Lifeboat #12; certainly not Joughin.

Good point -- which is why I thought about it. There was no other testimony (at least that I could find) of ANY "baker" manning ANY lifeboat. So, what would motivate Imanita Shelley to swear under oath that one of the men who manned her boat was a "baker?" I can think of no other reason for this woman to include this into her sworn affidavit unless she believed it to be true.

Now, Mrs. Imanita Parrish Shelley could simply be incorrect or lying. However, her affidavit is remarkably clear on details.

The only thing that I would otherwise seem suspect from her affidavit is the claim that Isidor and Ida Strauss would have been known that this Second Class passenger was ill, helped her into a deck chair and subsequently advised Mrs. Shelley and her mother to get into a lifeboat. If true, this crossing of paths (and classes) was the most remarkable thing included in the affidavit.

It's possible that Mrs. Shelley exaggerated or lied in her sworn affidavit. She could have been lying about meeting Mr. and Mrs. Strauss. However, it just seems so random and odd to actually lie about who was manning her lifeboat (i.e., a stoker and a baker).

• Just as Lifeboat #10 started to lower at 01:50 am, a man jumped into the boat, injuring Lute Parrish in the process. Able Seaman Frank Evans, one of the crew in charge of Lifeboat #10, testified at the American Inquiry that this incident happened in his boat.

Well, to be clear: Evans didn't say that a man jumped onto Mrs. Lute Parrish. He mentioned a foreigner who jumped across into the boat.

Rather, when asked about other men in his lifeboat (#10), Evans stated, "I think there were one or two; there was me and another seaman and a steward, and two men."

When asked who these men were, he responded, "I do not know, sir. I think one was a foreigner that was up forward." He then described the 'foreigner' by saying, "Yes. He was a passenger. The chief officer, Murdoch, had cleared all the women and children from that side of the ship, and he asked if there was any more, and there was no reply came, and the boat was packed, sir, and as this boat was being lowered this foreigner must have jumped from A deck into the boat."

Evans then mentioned that he "just deliberately jumped across into the boat" prior to it being lowered.

TIP | United States Senate Inquiry | Day 7 | Testimony of Frank O. Evans (Able Bodied Seaman, SS Titanic)

Electronic - Fully Searchable - transcripts of the complete U.S. Senate and British Board of Trade inquiries, and reports, into the sinking of the S.S. 'Titanic.'

www.titanicinquiry.org

This is potentially important because it contradicts the recollection of Mrs. Shelley in the affidavit. She mentions a "crazed Italian" who, just as the boat reached the water, "jumped from the deck into the lifeboat, landing on Mrs. Parrish, severely bruising her right side and leg. This gave them one extra man."

So, I find no mention of Evans (or anyone) in Boat #10 who mentions a "Mrs. Parrish" by name or an incident in which a person jumped from the deck into a boat that was now reaching the water. In fact, Evans mentioned that he didn't even know the identities of all but one other man in the boat. When asked about their identities, Evans stated, "There were me, and Buley, a fireman, a steward, and one foreigner."

It would be interesting to know with any certainty the identity of the "foreigner" or "crazed Italian" in Boat #10 and/or the boat in which Mrs. Shelley was a passenger. Maybe you might be able to help with identifying this jumper.

It might be that Imanita Shelley saw the baker (Joughin himself) helping with the loading of Lifeboat #10 and he might even have given her and her mother a hand to climb on board. Joughin was probably quite voluble doing the loading, thus making an impression on the minds of Shelley and the others in the boat. So, when she saw him alive and well on board the Carpathia later that day, Imanita Shelley could have mistakenly assumed that Joughin was also one of those rescued on her lifeboat. That could have been the reason for her statement about the 'baker' several days later during the testimony.

That is a very interesting possibility!

However, I wonder if Joughin was actually in either boat -- #10 or #12 -- where Imanita Parrish Shelley was seated. She mentioned the baker specifically. I'm fairly confident that Joughin wasn't wearing a baker/chef hat during the sinking. He did have a very distinctive mustache; so, I suppose that he could be recognized by it. However, I don't see Mrs. Shelley having recognized the baker from any previous encounter (which I think she would have mentioned as she mentioned Mr. and Mrs. Strauss).

Still, I suppose that it wouldn't matter which lifeboat Mrs. Shelley and Mrs. Parrish were seated into. The point is that she mentioned a "baker." Not only did Lifeboat #12 later pick up survivors from Collapsible B, but Evans also testified that Lifeboat #10 and Lifeboat #12 tied up to one another prior to Lifeboat #12 meeting up and rearranging passengers with Lifeboat #14.

Here's Evan's testimony about this:

Senator SMITH.
What did you do then?

Mr. EVANS.
We went over to where there were three more boats, and we tied up to them.

Senator SMITH.
Do you know which lifeboats you tied up to?

Mr. EVANS.
There was No. 12.

Senator SMITH.
Your boat?

Mr. EVANS.
I was in No. 10, then.

Senator SMITH.
Yes, I understand; but No. 12 was your own boat?

Mr. EVANS.
Yes, she was my original boat. That was my station.

Senator SMITH.
What were the numbers of the other boats?

Mr. EVANS.
I was in No. 10, and we tied up to No. 12. We gave the man our painter and made fast, and we stopped there.

Senator SMITH.
How long did you stop there?

Mr. EVANS.
We stopped there about an hour, I think it was, sir, when No. 14 boat came over with one officer.

So, let's consider the possibility that Mrs. Imanita Shelley was seated in Lifeboat #10 (and not #12 as was supposed). She still identified (in her sworn affidavit) that a "baker" was one of the men manning the boat. If this was, indeed, Lifeboat 10, then it later tied up to Lifeboat 12. As mentioned earlier, Lifeboat 12 eventually met up with Lifeboat #14, rearranged passengers, and rescued the men on Collapsible B.

Thus, it can still fit within a realm of possibility that Chief Baker Charles Joughin was in a boat with Mrs. Shelley. In the darkness, confusion and reshuffling of passengers from one boat to another, Joughin could have ended up in Lifeboat #12 which later rescued the men of Collapsible B -- the overturned boat that Joughin claimed to have been swimming alongside for "hours."

Of course, all of this is mere conjecture. However, the only link would be Mrs. Shelley's sworn affidavit mentioning a "baker" in her lifeboat. This could not have been any other baker from Titanic. And, of course, we know that Joughin was not swimming in the icy ocean for "hours" but found himself eventually in Lifeboat #12 (or, possibly Lifeboat #4). This scenario places Joughin on the scene that coincides with his "rescue."

Is it possible that Joughin was in a boat all along? Is it possible that during the confusion and darkness of pulling men from Collapsible B that Joughin somehow fell into the water or otherwise got his feet wet and his story ballooned from there? As conjectured as this might be, it makes much more sense than a man going down with the ship and then swimming around the Atlantic for "hours."

As for Joughin's testimony: It seems that much of what he said could have been a firsthand accounted invented by a thirdhand viewing from the safety of a lifeboat (whether #10 or #12). Then again, he could be telling the truth for some of his testimony. Maybe he did go down with the ship and end up standing on the rim of Collapsible B rather than swimming alongside it. That would explain his own testimony of having to climb aboard Carpathia using his knees. Then again, no one (apart from Joughin) has actually corroborated that claim either.

I suppose that my mentioning of Mrs. Imanita Parrish Shelley's sworn affidavit and how I conjected a potential explanation regarding Charles Joughin is a bit fanciful. However, I'm simply looking for any firsthand eyewitness testimony about the Chief Baker and his whereabouts on that fateful night.

Joughin's story spread quickly (especially in the press) but I would love to piece together the truth about it. Just this week, I read stories on two different websites about how Charles Joughin "owes his life" to getting drunk -- something that we certainly know to be untrue.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

I find no mention of Evans (or anyone) in Boat #10 who mentions a "Mrs. Parrish" by name or an incident in which a person jumped from the deck into a boat that was now reaching the water.

I doubt very much if someone like AB Frank Evans would have known the identity of any passenger on board his lifeboat given the circumstances. That late in the sinking and with the tragedy continuing to unfold before them, every survivor would have other things in mind and apart from their loved ones - in case of Imanita Shelly, her mother was with her in the lifeboat and they were leaving no one behind - they would be too preoccupied to be looking at who else was there. Once the survivors started milling around on board the Carpathia, it would have been even more difficult to be certain who was there with them on the lifeboat.

It would be interesting to know with any certainty the identity of the "foreigner" or "crazed Italian" in Boat #10 and/or the boat in which Mrs. Shelley was a passenger. Maybe you might be able to help with identifying this jumper.

It would be very difficult to be certain. People of North European Anglo-Saxon descent often referred to any Mediterranian looking person as "Spaniard" or "Italian", especially if the person appeared to be anxious and voluble. There were many survivors with whom there is uncertainty about which lifeboat they were rescued on; Emilio Portaluppi for example, was an Italian American travelling in Second Class who survived on a portside aft lifeboat but no one knows which specific one. Nominally, people think that he might have been picked up by Lifeboat #14 but there is no definite evidence about that; he might have jumped into Lifeboat #10 and inadvertantly injured Mrs Parrish. If so, struggling with survivor's guilt he could easily have made-up the story about "swimming for 2 hours" (which was at least a gross exaggeration anyway, as we all know) before being picked-up.

Thus, it can still fit within a realm of possibility that Chief Baker Charles Joughin was in a boat with Mrs. Shelley

No, that is highly unlikely. A few people on board the overturned Collapsible B would have recognized Joughin but at this moment I can only think of cook Isaac Maynard who helped the baker get on baord the makeshift raft. Maynard's statements are not too outlandish and his description of Captain Smith remaining on the bridge till the end could well be very close to the truth. Admittedly, the sight of Smith swimming with his cap still on or declining a place on the raft sounds like an embellishment, but AFAIK Maynard never said anything about the Captain handing him a baby before drifting away himself; that latter part was entirely a media imagination for effect.

Mrs. Imanita Parrish Shelley could simply be incorrect or lying. It's possible that Mrs. Shelley exaggerated or lied in her sworn affidavit.

I doubt if Mrs Shelley was consciously lying - she would have had no reason to do so. But, weighed down by her (and her mother's) lucky escape and traumatized by the deaths of many others, she could easily have got mixed-up and tended to exaggerate or make mistakes in her affidavit.

 

[Mike Spooner]

Add to further confusion of what boat numbers some where transferred to. If in the pitch dark I would of thought boat numbers was the last thing on their mind.

 

[chrismireya]

No, that is highly unlikely. A few people on board the overturned Collapsible B would have recognized Joughin but at this moment I can only think of cook Isaac Maynard who helped the baker get on baord the makeshift raft. Maynard's statements are not too outlandish and his description of Captain Smith remaining on the bridge till the end could well be very close to the truth.

Do you have a source for this (particularly in regard to Joughin)? I've heard it repeated many times but I cannot find any firsthand account from Maynard himself. Mr. Maynard never testified at the inquiries.

In fact, I cannot find any credible firsthand source from the press either that quotes him directly. Rather, I find Joughin's testimony to this effect -- and no one else (apart from after-the-fact hearsay). Obviously, Joughin's testimony is somewhat suspect.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

Do you have a source for this (particularly in regard to Joughin)? I've heard it repeated many times but I cannot find any firsthand account from Maynard himself. Mr. Maynard never testified at the inquiries.

Yes and no. It is what you might call circumstantial evidence and a process of elimination.

First, the confusing and likely inaccurate testimony of Imanita Shelley apart, AFAIK no one on Lifeboat #10 (or Lifeboat #12 for that matter) claimed to have seen baker Joughin in their boat. The heavily moustachioed, diminutive Joughin, probably rather inebriated and voluble, was quite a character and had a certain presence about him that would have been remembered.

So, if Joughin was not on Lifeboat #10 (and I do not believe that he was), how else did he survive? #10 was lowered at 01:50am, about the same time as Lifeboat #4. No one including Joughin himself claimed that he went over to the starboard side and so he did not get on board the crowded Collapsible C. Lightoller and Wilde would never have allowed Joughin to enter Collapsible D and that left Collapsibles A & B. Neither Joughin himself nor any of the survivors of the much imperilled Collapsible A claimed that he was anywhere near it, let alone on board. That left Collapsible B and apart from the fact that Joughin himself testified that he was pulled on board the overturned lifeboat, I don't think any other survivor on that raft challenged his statement. With Second Officer Lightoller being one of them, Joughin would not have risked lying about being there even if had the inclination to do so.

Then there is Joughin's testimony at the British Investigation:
6099. How much later on was it that you were picked up?
- I eventually got round to the opposite side, and a cook that was on the collapsible recognised me, and held out his hand and held me - a chap named Maynard.

Finally, although Maynard himself was not called in to testify at either Inquiry, there is apparently a deposition that he gave to the British Commission about the circumstances of his own survival (Endnote #69 of Appendix M on p429 of On A Sea Of Glass). The whereabouts of that deposition are unknown and so one can only assume that Maynard had mentioned his rescue of Joughin in it.

In fact, I cannot find any credible firsthand source from the press either that quotes him directly. Rather, I find Joughin's testimony to this effect -- and no one else (apart from after-the-fact hearsay). Obviously, Joughin's testimony is somewhat suspect.

A lot of things that Joughin said about his survival appear to have been elements of truth interspersed with a lot of exaggeration and/or embellishment rather than outright lies. He testified about being in the Pantry on A-deck fortifying himself when he heard sounds like heavy metalwork coming apart. This was certainly after he had helped with lowering of Lifeboat #10 (about which there is no doubt) and long after Lifeboat #12 was launched.

 

[chrismireya]

Yes and no. It is what you might call circumstantial evidence and a process of elimination.

First, the confusing and likely inaccurate testimony of Imanita Shelley apart, AFAIK no one on Lifeboat #10 (or Lifeboat #12 for that matter) claimed to have seen baker Joughin in their boat. The heavily moustachioed, diminutive Joughin, probably rather inebriated and voluble, was quite a character and had a certain presence about him that would have been remembered.

I think that the same can be said of Joughin and Collapsible B. I haven't read any firsthand testimony of individuals aboard the overturned Collapsible B who saw Charles Joughin. No one mentioned him in the water... trying to climb aboard...or holding on to either the side or someone's hand (the latter which may have been nearly impossible anyway).

As for the lifeboats: They were very dark and mostly congregated by strangers. It's not like anyone would have identified someone that they didn't previously know except through conversation. This was why Mrs. Imanita Shelley's affidavit is so interesting to me. She identified two men making her boat -- a stoker and a baker.

This was a very random thing to input into sworn testimony. It is also something that would have most likely been ascertained through verbal conversations.

Now, memories can be fickle beasts -- especially from a traumatic experience. Personally, I don't trust Joughin given his changing testimony and obvious fabrications. Like you said, he may have mingled truth with his lies and lies with the truth. However, I haven't found any reason to doubt Mrs. Shelley's statement to the point that I would dismiss it or doubt it to the degree that I doubt Joughin's claims.

In the aftermath of the sinking, the press at the time did what they do best -- sell papers with questionable statements, published hearsay, unsubstantiated claims and dubious "yellow journalism" practices. It really hurts the attempt to ascertain truth and timelines from that night. This is why I find the sworn testimony to be so important.

Mrs. Shelley could be wrong. She also could be correct. I'm not sure. The one thing that I am sure of is that Charles Joughin's entire story (pardon the pun) didn't hold water.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

I think we are going around in circles here. Buley and Evans, both of whom were definitely on board and in charge of Lifeboat #10, were with Joughin when they were loading it earlier. Both men mentioned him at the American Inquiry where they were called in. In addition, Buley also testified at the British Investigation.

Here are some excerpts with relevant points highlighted.

Buley at the US Inquiry

Mr. BULEY.
No, sir; not to the lower deck. We lowered all the starboard boats, and went over and done the same to the port boats. There was No. 10 boat, and there was no one there, and the chief officer asked what I was, and I told him, and he said, "Jump in and see if you can find another seaman to give you a hand." I found Evans, and we both got in the boat, and Chief Officer Murdoch and the Baker also was there. I think we were the last lifeboat to be lowered. We got away from the ship.

Senator FLETCHER.
How many people were in that boat?

Mr. BULEY.
From 60 to 70.

Senator FLETCHER.
Mostly women?

Mr. BULEY.
Women and children.

Senator FLETCHER.
How many men?

Mr. BULEY.
There were the steward and one fireman.

Senator FLETCHER.
And yourself?

Mr. BULEY.
And myself and Evans, the able seaman.

Senator FLETCHER.
That is all the men?

Mr. BULEY.
Yes, sir.
Do you know the names of the men in the boat with you?

Mr. BULEY.
I only know one, sir. That is Evans, able seaman.


Evans at the US Inquiry

Senator SMITH.
That boat was lowered. Were there any male passengers in there; any members of the crew, males?

Mr. EVANS.
I did not notice any. After we got them into that, I sung out to the seaman: "How many have you got in that boat?" I said: "Ginger, how many have you got?" He said: "There is only me here." I lowered that boat, sir, and she went away from the ship. I then went next to No. 10, sir, to that boat, and the chief officer, Mr. Murdoch, was standing there, and I lowered the boat with the assistance of a steward. The chief officer said, "What are you, Evans?" I said "A seaman, sir." He said "All right; get into that boat with the other seamen." He said, "Get into that boat," and I got into the bows of this boat, and a young ship's baker was getting the children and chucking them into the boat, and the women were jumping. Mr. Murdoch made them jump across into the boat.

Senator SMITH.
How far?

Mr. EVANS.
It was about two feet and a half, sir. He was making the women jump across, and the children he was chucking across, along with this baker. He throwed them onto the women, and he was catching the children by their dresses and chucking them in.

Senator SMITH.
How many men besides yourself?

Mr. EVANS.
I think there were one or two; there was me and another seaman and a steward, and two men.

Senator SMITH.
Who were these men?

Mr. EVANS.
I do not know, sir. I think one was a foreigner that was up forward.

Senator SMITH.
A passenger?

Mr. EVANS.
Yes; he was a passenger. The chief officer, Murdoch, had cleared all the women and children from that side of the ship, and he asked if there was any more, and there was no reply came, and the boat was packed, sir, and as this boat was being lowered this foreigner must have jumped from A deck into the boat.

Senator FLETCHER.
You were both ordered into the boat?

Mr. EVANS.
Yes; by Chief Officer Murdoch.

Senator FLETCHER.
How many men were in that boat?

Mr. EVANS.
There were me, and Buley, a fireman, a steward, and one foreigner. The reminder was all women and children.


Finally, Buley at the British Investigation:

18096. And later on you left in boat 10. Were there any crew with you in boat 10?
- Yes.

18097. Who?
- An able seaman forward, Evans, and a fireman and a steward.

18098. Who else was in the boat besides those members of the crew?
- Women and children.

All that clearly shows the following.

• Buley & Evans were loading Lifeboat #10 with Murdoch and Joughin. Both of them recognized and mentioned the baker.
• Buley and Evans were ordered into #10 and take charge just before it was lowered at 01:50 am.
• An undentified fireman and a steward were the only other crew in Lifeboat #10 with Buley & Evans. Both men were specifically asked about this and neither mentioned that Joughin had also got in.
• Incidentally, the sole male 'foreigner' who jumped into Lifeboat #10 (Evans at the US Inquiry) was Neshan Krekorian.
• Therefore, by inference Joughin was not rescued on Lifeboat #10 and so not on Lifeboat #4 either. He did not go across to the starboard side and so, could not have been on Collapsible C; back on the port side, he would not have been allowed into Collapsible D through the human barricade. He was not on Collapsible A for certain and did not die and so that means that he survived on the overturned Collapsible B.

If you are inclined to continue arguing about this beyond this point, then I have nothing more to add except to say that you are free to believe what you want to believe.

 

[chrismireya]

I think we are going around in circles here. Buley and Evans, both of whom were definitely on board and in charge of Lifeboat #10, were with Joughin when they were loading it earlier. Both men mentioned him at the American Inquiry where they were called in. In addition, Buley also testified at the British Investigation.

Here are some excerpts with relevant points highlighted.

Buley at the US Inquiry

Mr. BULEY.
No, sir; not to the lower deck. We lowered all the starboard boats, and went over and done the same to the port boats. There was No. 10 boat, and there was no one there, and the chief officer asked what I was, and I told him, and he said, "Jump in and see if you can find another seaman to give you a hand." I found Evans, and we both got in the boat, and Chief Officer Murdoch and the Baker also was there. I think we were the last lifeboat to be lowered. We got away from the ship.

Senator FLETCHER.
How many people were in that boat?

Mr. BULEY.
From 60 to 70.

Senator FLETCHER.
Mostly women?

Mr. BULEY.
Women and children.

Senator FLETCHER.
How many men?

Mr. BULEY.
There were the steward and one fireman.

Senator FLETCHER.
And yourself?

Mr. BULEY.
And myself and Evans, the able seaman.

Senator FLETCHER.
That is all the men?

Mr. BULEY.
Yes, sir.
Do you know the names of the men in the boat with you?

Mr. BULEY.
I only know one, sir. That is Evans, able seaman.


Evans at the US Inquiry

Senator SMITH.
That boat was lowered. Were there any male passengers in there; any members of the crew, males?

Mr. EVANS.
I did not notice any. After we got them into that, I sung out to the seaman: "How many have you got in that boat?" I said: "Ginger, how many have you got?" He said: "There is only me here." I lowered that boat, sir, and she went away from the ship. I then went next to No. 10, sir, to that boat, and the chief officer, Mr. Murdoch, was standing there, and I lowered the boat with the assistance of a steward. The chief officer said, "What are you, Evans?" I said "A seaman, sir." He said "All right; get into that boat with the other seamen." He said, "Get into that boat," and I got into the bows of this boat, and a young ship's baker was getting the children and chucking them into the boat, and the women were jumping. Mr. Murdoch made them jump across into the boat.

Senator SMITH.
How far?

Mr. EVANS.
It was about two feet and a half, sir. He was making the women jump across, and the children he was chucking across, along with this baker. He throwed them onto the women, and he was catching the children by their dresses and chucking them in.

Senator SMITH.
How many men besides yourself?

Mr. EVANS.
I think there were one or two; there was me and another seaman and a steward, and two men.

Senator SMITH.
Who were these men?

Mr. EVANS.
I do not know, sir. I think one was a foreigner that was up forward.

Senator SMITH.
A passenger?

Mr. EVANS.
Yes; he was a passenger. The chief officer, Murdoch, had cleared all the women and children from that side of the ship, and he asked if there was any more, and there was no reply came, and the boat was packed, sir, and as this boat was being lowered this foreigner must have jumped from A deck into the boat.

Senator FLETCHER.
You were both ordered into the boat?

Mr. EVANS.
Yes; by Chief Officer Murdoch.

Senator FLETCHER.
How many men were in that boat?

Mr. EVANS.
There were me, and Buley, a fireman, a steward, and one foreigner. The reminder was all women and children.


Finally, Buley at the British Investigation:

18096. And later on you left in boat 10. Were there any crew with you in boat 10?
- Yes.

18097. Who?
- An able seaman forward, Evans, and a fireman and a steward.

18098. Who else was in the boat besides those members of the crew?
- Women and children.

All that clearly shows the following.

• Buley & Evans were loading Lifeboat #10 with Murdoch and Joughin. Both of them recognized and mentioned the baker.
• Buley and Evans were ordered into #10 and take charge just before it was lowered at 01:50 am.
• An undentified fireman and a steward were the only other crew in Lifeboat #10 with Buley & Evans. Both men were specifically asked about this and neither mentioned that Joughin had also got in.
• Incidentally, the sole male 'foreigner' who jumped into Lifeboat #10 (Evans at the US Inquiry) was Neshan Krekorian.
• Therefore, by inference Joughin was not rescued on Lifeboat #10 and so not on Lifeboat #4 either. He did not go across to the starboard side and so, could not have been on Collapsible C; back on the port side, he would not have been allowed into Collapsible D through the human barricade. He was not on Collapsible A for certain and did not die and so that means that he survived on the overturned Collapsible B.

If you are inclined to continue arguing about this beyond this point, then I have nothing more to add except to say that you are free to believe what you want to believe.

I agree that there are some circles being traveled here. I'm certainly not trying to "argue" either. You might be entirely correct.

I'm not asserting that Joughin (or at least a baker) wasn't helping to load passengers into a lifeboat. I'm also not saying definitively that Joughin was or was not in Boat #10 (or even Boat #12). I'm not actually asserting anything of the sort, really.

All that I am saying is that Joughin's story is embellished and has holes in it. There is little accounting for him from the point where people saw him loading lifeboats until he was in a lifeboat picked up by Carpathia.

You've accounted for his whereabouts aboard Titanic in the time before the ship went down. Given the lack of firsthand accounts about Joughin's whereabouts after the sinking, I created this thread in the hope to hear from others about theories regarding what happened with Joughin that night. He wasn't swimming around in the ocean. He wasn't even holding onto Collapsible B. That is physically impossible.

So, if he wasn't in the water, where was he?

I brought up Mrs. Imanita Parrish Shelley because she swore under oath that a "baker" was manning the boat in which she was seated. Obviously, she could have been wrong. I brought up Lifeboat #12 -- which, according to Ioannis Georgiou also was boarded and launched during a port list. I brought it up because there are websites (including Encyclopedia Titanica) that include Mrs. Parrish and Mrs. Shelley as having likely been seated in that boat.

Titanic Lifeboat No. 12 | Encyclopedia Titanica

Titanic survivors in lifeboat 12

www.encyclopedia-titanica.org

The websites that include this could be wrong. But, for just a moment, let me just entertain the idea that Mrs. Shelley was aboard Lifeboat #12. In this boat, she swore that it was manned by a "baker."

Now, the problem with any theory of Joughin getting into Lifeboat #12 is the problem that he (or at least some other "young ship's baker") was seen assisting in the loading of Lifeboat #10 -- a boat that was launched after Lifeboat #12. Is it at all possible that both boats were boarding at the same time? Would it be possible for a person to help (for at least a few minutes) load passengers into Boat #10 before moving to Boat #12? After all, Joughin himself stated that three boats (#10, #12 and #14) were being boarded at the same time.

TIP | British Wreck Commissioner's Inquiry | Day 6 | Testimony of Charles Joughin (Chief Baker, SS Titanic)

Electronic - Fully Searchable - transcripts of the complete U.S. Senate and British Board of Trade inquiries, and reports, into the sinking of the S.S. 'Titanic.'

titanicinquiry.org

Again, this is not any sort of assertion. It's possible that your conclusion about Mrs. Parrish and Mrs. Shelley actually having boarded Lifeboat #10 might be accurate. And, for all we know, Joughin went down with the ship after having helped load Lifeboat #10. Moreover, Mrs. Shelley could have simply been wrong in her sworn affidavit.

My point isn't the assert this theory that I've entertained as a fact. The one thing about that night that is clear is that very little is entirely "clear." The last moments aboard Titanic were chaotic, frenzied and traumatic. Once in the lifeboat, things were dark, daunting and overwhelmingly horrifying (especially with the only thing greater than the fear of the icy sea being the deathly cries coming out of the darkness).

Somewhere in that darkness was Charles Joughin. I don't believe that he was in the water (at least not for long). If he wasn't aboard Collapsible B (and he may have been) or one of the lucky few rescued out of the ocean by a returning lifeboat, then I think he had to have been in a lifeboat all along. The only person that I read sworn testimony for having a "baker" aboard a lifeboat is Imanita Shelley.

It's possible that parts of Joughin's testimony are true until he reached the water. I used to think that he was aboard overturned Collapsible B all along (just not recognized by others -- who were primarily focused on survival at the time). This would account for him having "swollen feet" too -- as it would be the only part of his body getting wet. This might very well be an accurate explanation too.

However, I started this thread to hear what scenarios, theories or explanations that others have for it. The "baker in Mrs. Shelley's lifeboat" is just one theory (albeit based only on one sworn affidavit). I just think that it's interesting that, if Mrs. Shelley was truly in Lifeboat #12, that Joughin eventually ended up being rescued from Collapsible B and ending up in Lifeboat #12 too (unless he was there in the darkness the entire time).

I'd love to hear what other Titanic enthusiasts, historians or armchair experts think happened with Charles Joughin.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

All that I am saying is that Joughin's story is embellished and has holes in it. There is little accounting for him from the point where people saw him loading lifeboats until he was in a lifeboat picked up by Carpathia.

I agree that Joughin's testimony is greatly exaggerated and embellished but still a version - if you could call it that - of the truth.

Joughin was not anywhere near Lifeboat #12 at the time of its launching from the Titanic at 01:30 am. He was certainly helping with loading of Lifeboat #10 some 15 minutes later and was seen and recognized by Buley and Evans. We have been through this before.

As for no one else being able to account for Joughin's whereabouts after loading Lifeboat #10, that is true of a very large number of survivors wh were not yet in lifeboats after about 01:45 am. By then, all concerned were aware that there was not much time left in the losing battle and would have been more concerned about their own chances of survival rather than keep track of someone else. Therefore, while reconstructing the movements of the likes of Joughin, Jack Thayer, Colonel Gracie, Hugh Woolner, Harold Bride, Lightoller etc etc etc, we have to rely largely on individual statements and then try to filter out what was possible from what was not - or at least unlikely.

He wasn't swimming around in the ocean. He wasn't even holding onto Collapsible B. That is physically impossible.

So, if he wasn't in the water, where was he?

Not in the literal sense and I believe that the explanation is fairly simple. You are just trying to make a mystery out of nothing based on a erroneous and confusing statement by one survivor - Imanita Shelly.

I believe that after he saw Lifeboat #10 lowered, Joughin went to the Pantry on A-deck to have another drink - like he said. Then he was making his way aft like most others on the boat deck at the time when he head those sounds of buckling metal deep underneath - the earliest sign of the break-up that followed several minutes later. Joughin managed to reach the very stern and hang on somewhere there, even if it was not the deck railing. I find it hard to believe that he could have continued to hang on to a railing through the rise, fall, rise again and turning manuevers of the stern section before, during and after the break-up but somehow - more by sheer luck than any skill or judgement - he did and ended-up in the water just as the stern was sinking. His life vest prevented him from being sucked down and he probably swam for no more than a few minutes before reaching the nearby overturned Collapsible B by chance. That capsized lifeboat with people standing on it with nothing to row it with could not have drifted far from the spot and so Joughin could have reached in within a few minutes of hitting the water himself. There was probably some reluctance intially of pulling him up but eventually Maynard offered him a hand to hang on to and perhaps with the help of a couple of others already on board, hauled the baker to the top.

I think he had to have been in a lifeboat all along.

No, he wasn't. I think we have been though this before. Available evidence (and I am not going to repeat the details) indicates that he did not get on board Lifeboat #10 although he helped to load it. By inference therefore, he could not have been on Lifeboat #4, which was lowered at the same time as #10. He did not get on board Collapsibles C or D for reasons already mentioned and he certainly was not one of the survivors of Collapsible A. That left the overturned Collapsible B like most people accept that Joughin survived on, minus all the exaggerations and embellishments of his story.