What should be the objectives of future dives to the Titanic


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What should be the objectives of future dives on the Titanic? Exploration? Artifact recovery? Tourism? All of the above?
Personally, I favor all of the above?


What should be the objectives of exploratory missions- what areas should be explored?
The most recent Cameron expedition to the Titanic acheived a comprehensive exploration and documentation of he interior of the bow section-

What areas would you all like to see explored in equal detail on future dives?

As battered as it is, I hope an attempt can be made to pentrate the interior of the stern section-Many people write off the stern as being too obliterated to explore, but I think there may be pockets that survived obliteration....

There is still much to be explored in the debris field.......

As for the bow section- It would be nice if a probe could be sent into boiler room #2, between the boilers, or into the growing hole above the alcove of the Read & Writing room.....

Perhaps Scotland Road,the squash court and the 3rd class dining room could be explored- i think there is more to see in the bow section-

On future dives to Titanic (and there WILL be future dives) what areas do you feel should be explored?
 
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I think you can forget the stern section. It's too far gone, even for ROV's and it's not getting better with time. Personally, I'd like to see a thorough exploration of the bow from the inside, specifically with an eye towards getting into boiler rooms six and five. This, ultimately, is where the battle to keep the ship afloat was fought and lost. I hope that the answers to a lot of forensics questions can be answered here.

I also share Parks Stephenson's opinion that the Marconi rig needs to be recovered, conserved, and even restored while it's still possible to do so. It's only a matter of time before the on going collapse of the superstructure renders this impossible.
 
Mar 3, 1998
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I think you can forget the stern section.

I disagree. Yes, the stern is more challenging and continued exploration of the bow has more return on investment potential, but there are a number of reasons why the stern should not be written off for good.

I'm not going to detail those reasons here because the list of stern dive targets that Bill Sauder and I developed has only been pitched once to a producer and may be revisited again in the future. Funding for an expedition will go to the party with the most compelling pitch and I don't want to give a potential competitor a peek into what I will be proposing.

For much the same reason, I'm not going to speculate on future bow dive targets, either.

Parks​
 
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Hi Parks
Well, this does give me hope there will be future expeditions- I'm awfully curious- what is the usual cost for a Titanic expedition? Several millions of dollars?

Public interst in Titanic may be on the wane, but rest assured, in 2012, the interest will peak again, certainly enough to justify another expedition to the site - which will hopefully be funded by History channel, Discovery channel or private interests...
I understand your keeping mum on areas you would like to see explored- I assume though some areas in the bow will be spots missed last time around, such as Scotland Road....

The stern sections deserves closer scrutiny-
At first glance all of 2nd class apears pancaked-and thus inacessable- but *perhaps* the exposed starboard side decks on the stern could offer is some glimpses of the interior....

I'd like to see the torn open port side Verandah Cafe on A deck explored, perhaps the smoking room fireplace is wedged back there...Traces of smoking room floor tiles were found at the base of the davit for lifeboat #16- perhaps additonal tiles could be found loose, again in the portside verandh cafe....

And of course on the bow section, there is the growing hole above the forward alcove of the Reading and Writing Room- And the alcove had yet to be explored-certainly there must be things worth exploring inside that once elegant room- I'm curious how far aft one could go on A deck before the boat deck and A deck touch- perhaps light fixtures and remnants of the 1st class lounge could be spotted....Imagine if the fireplaces on the Reading & Writing Room and Lounge are still present?
On the poop deck, I'd be eager to see what lingers down the hole that once housed the 3rd class staircase...

There is indeed much to be seen, and i suspect it will take many expedtions to fully document Titanic's interior...

On the issue of artifact recovery- I think it's now a battle against the clock to recover key components from the marconi room-the question is could this be done with minimal damage to the overhead of the wireless shack? And who will recover these items? RMS Titanic Inc no longer have access to the MIR subs, so they might not be able to recover the components in the foerseeable future..
 
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what is the usual cost for a Titanic expedition? Several millions of dollars?

I don't know...I don't usually ask my benefactors how much things cost. I just do my best to highlight the importance of exploring such-and-such and let them figure how much money they are willing to spend to accomplish the task.

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I assume though some areas in the bow will be spots missed last time around, such as Scotland Road....

Scotland Road was explored as much as possible in 2005. It closes down just aft of the No. 1 boiler casing...appears to be completely impassable, unless there's some way through the stewards' quarters along the outboard side of the passageway.

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but *perhaps* the exposed starboard side decks on the stern could offer is some glimpses of the interior....

Tricky manoeuvring, but an interesting area for those who persist.

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I'm curious how far aft one could go on A deck before the boat deck and A deck touch- perhaps light fixtures and remnants of the 1st class lounge could be spotted

We went back as far as the rotating door (it wasn't there or we didn't see it)...it seemed impassible farther aft. In that passageway are two intact cut-glass (!) light fixtures still hanging from the overhead.

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Imagine if the fireplaces on the Reading & Writing Room and Lounge are still present?

Gone...that's right at the area where the aft end of the bow section collapsed. The one hole in the roof of the Lounge shows a tangled, unrecognisable mess.

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On the poop deck, I'd be eager to see what lingers down the hole that once housed the 3rd class staircase...

I've seen green-and-white tiles down there. Plus, it appears that lighter fixtures and artefacts rained down on that area, so there's always the possibility of running into something interesting that doesn't belong there.

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marconi room-the question is could this be done with minimal damage to the overhead of the wireless shack?

Forget the Marconi Room roof...when I last saw it in August 2005, it had suffered a major collapse. I expect that more of it has collapsed since then. Man can't do any more damage to it now than the currents and corrosion have accomplished over the past 90 years.

Parks​
 
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Hi Parks

Thanks for the detailed response....

Well, given that the overhead of the Marconi room has collapsed- perhaps its a moot point to worry if the recovery of the instruments from within would damage the area- the damage is done- I just hope when the overhead gave way it did not damage any of the things that were fortunatly filmed during the Cameron expedition....Thank God the Marconi room was explored and filmed- otherwise it would have been a room like the gymnasium- a room that collapsed on itself before any internal exploration took place..

If RMS Titanic Inc are the ones that will eventually recover these artifacts, I hope they get their house together in the meantime, in the creation of a permanant Titanic Artifact museum, and a stable conservation facility- as some of the Marconi objects may prove too fragile for a life of perpetual tour on the road....

On the bow, the forward half of the 3rd class Dining Room may prove an interesting area to explore- I wonder if the long tables and chairs survived?No doubt the aft end of the room was oblterated in the breakup and deck collapse..

The swimming bath sounds to be inacessable forever, due to the closed watertight door...

I've sadly concluded areas on the stern such as the 1st Class Resturant and Cafe Parisien are crushed and inacessable-

A shame about the Reading & Writing room and Lounge- i was hoping *somthing* would remain..It is curious that no lounge (or stateroom) debris has been spotted at the lip of the break, facing the boliers in the bow section..one would think gravity would cause that debris to drop down over the years.......

The large wood panel from the 1st class Lounge, at the Museum of the Atlantic, came from the forward part of the room, as opposed to the aft area- perhaps during the breakup, and subsiquent plummet to the bottom, all the woodwork and fittings in the lounge were torn loose, and the day after sinking, that room, in additon to being collapsed, would appear totally stripped bare..I wonder about the impressive ceiling light fixture in the lounge- did that remain within the ship as Titanic sank, or was the entire ceiling panel(s) wrenched loose as the ship sank?

...Ballard once photographed the small a small statue (that sat atop the mantle of the fireplace in the Lounge) sitting in the debris field..- so it would make sense the fireplace is in the debris field...
 
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Btw Parks, any word if there are plans for an upcoming book detailing the past Cameron expedition to Titanic? (hopefuly a nice companion to the 'Ghosts of the Abyss' book)
I'd welcome a book that details how you were able to identify each cabin, and is filled with some of the images of the Strauss suite, the turkish Bath, etc...

regards

tarn Stephanos
 
Mar 3, 1998
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I just hope when the overhead gave way it did not damage any of the things that were fortunatly filmed during the Cameron expedition

Me, too. That would be the first place that I would go if I ever returned.

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If RMS Titanic Inc are the ones that will eventually recover these artifacts

I'm hoping for the day when someone else will take over that responsibility.

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On the bow, the forward half of the 3rd class Dining Room may prove an interesting area to explore

That might be a tough one. It's a difficult place to get to and if we're penetrating that deep, there are more lucrative targets to attempt.

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The swimming bath sounds to be inacessable forever, due to the closed watertight door...

Never say die. I have three possible routes to the pool, only one of which is the obvious one.

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A shame about the Reading & Writing room and Lounge- i was hoping *somthing* would remain..

One of the metal (surprise!) lunette window frames from the R&WR alcove is visible through a hole in the roof, which now forms the sloping deck at the aft end of the bow section. It is a surprise that the statue of Artemis was found so far away, but that's chaos for you. Another Lounge light fixture is back on the stern, or maybe the debris field...I can't remember which.

Correct my last...I just checked my notes. It was a Smoking Room light fixture (next to a very ornate silver pitcher, of a type never before seen, according to Bill Sauder) on the stern section, near the remains of the 2nd-class Smoke Room/Library (the decks have flattened). The Lounge fixture that I saw must have been in the debris field.

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The large wood panel from the 1st class Lounge,

The roof over the forward starboard corner of the Lounge is gone. One would think that it opened up because of corrosion, but since the wood panel came from right next to that opening, one has to wonder if the roof was torn open during the sinking.

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any word if there are plans for an upcoming book detailing the past Cameron expedition to Titanic?

Nothing in the works right now, but the idea for a book like what you mention has been kicked around a bit...the idea isn't dead yet.

Parks​
 

Paul Lee

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I would personally like to see the area of Saalfeld and Peuchen's cabin explored, which I think are on C deck, and are in front of a boiler casing. They must have suffered some form of collapse on the way down for material inside the cabins to wind up outside, in the debris field (the perfumes, and wallet respectively).

Paul

 
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Paul,

Most, if not all, of the wooden walls that separated the staterooms on C Deck are gone, providing a view almost as far as the light can reach of brass beds and washstands. The walls, of course, didn't disappear until decades later. C Deck flooded slowly, which allowed the lighter items to float and find their way aft with the rising water, then presumably out through the break area.

Parks
 
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If RMS Titanic Inc are the ones that will eventually recover these artifacts

quote:

I'm hoping for the day when someone else will take over that responsibility.

I feel the same way, Parks, but then I remember that old saying, "Be careful what you wish for..."

Denise​
 
Mar 3, 1998
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"Be careful what you wish for..."

The situation is different nowadays. NOAA is now charged with oversight of the wreck and will monitor all recovery operations. There was no such oversight in the past.

Parks​
 

Jason D. Tiller

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quote:

I would personally like to see the area of Saalfeld and Peuchen's cabin explored, which I think are on C deck

So would I; it would be great to see the area of C 104 and C 105. But that begs the question, how much of it can be penetrated?

Speaking of Adolphe Saalfeld's vials, they are on display here at an artifact exhibition which is running for the next six months.​
 
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RMS Titanic Inc has left me disapointed, as there is still no home base museum for the artifacts, nor is there a stable conservation facility to treat the objects. Artifacts are apparently treated on the go,which in my view, is not good enough....

The marconi equipment should be recovered, but it must be retrieved by people who have the facilities and means to give the pieces the utmost care..
 
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Parks, with NOAA being charged with oversight of the wreck, does that mean they can only influence the actions of American groups that visit the wreck-or any group?

If RMS Titanic Inc chooses to recover more artifacts, will they need to have a NOAA rep on hand??


Do they have issues with expeditions that look, but take nothing? (such as the past Cameron, History Channel and Deep ocean Expedition dives)
 
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I often wonder about the appearance of Titanic the day after she sank- I suspect most of the forward C deck staterooms were intact, though no doubt the further aft you went, the more catastrophic damage you would find.....

I'd like to see Archibald Gracie's C deck stateroom explored, or the remnants thereof. No doubt his bedframe is still there...I believe he was in C-51, which puts his room forward of the break....
 
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Tarn,

All expeditions to the site must now submit their dive plans to NOAA for approval. In the matter of artefact retrieval, only the salvor-in-possession, which was identified in a U.S. Circuit Court, has permission to recover artefacts. Even then, though, their recovery plan must involve NOAA. If someone wishes to replace RMSTI as salvor-in-possession, that process will undoubtedly unfold in a U.S. Court.

This is my understanding, but then again, I am no lawyer. There could be some aspect to the law or other standing legal agreements that I am missing or do not fully understand.

Forward C Deck looked undamaged until you reached the Straus suite. Brass beds and washstands stood in their original positions...I didn't realise how closely people actually slept to one another until the walls were taken away. Aft of that, the decks close in on each other and it looked fairly impassible, judging by a quick look (attention was more on the Straus suite itself at that point).

I can only tell you what the decks look like today...I am no authority on what passenger slept where or what stateroom had what decor. I need a Don Lynch or someone of that ilk to help with that kind of information. The staterooms were interesting, but during the ROV's exploration of C Deck, I was more intriged with the Purser/Enquiry Office, elevators and telephone switchboard. Despite the amazing survival of the gilded woodwork in the Starus suite, I was mostly interested in the time indicated on the mantel clock (2:04, in my estimation) and the open/unlatched porthole in the bedroom.

Parks
 
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Thanks for the detailed information Parks....

Regarding the Strauss suite- it is amazing the hands of the clock survived- 2:04 AM certainly coincides with the time that part of C deck flooded...

The NOAA involvement with Titanic is positive, in that it would keep a watchful eye on what unfolds...
It makes me wonder if they will prefer scientific dives and analysis of the site, and turn a scornful eye to public dives to the wreck-
Time will tell......

I do wonder how NOAA would look at the recovery of key items from the marconi room- would they support such an endeavor, or prefer the main body of the wreck remain untouched?

With the most learned Titanic scholars in the private sector, I wonder if NOAA hires thier Titanic researchers as outside civilian contractors, or if they keep such within their officer corps...7 years ago in Norfolk I met a gentleman from NOAA, who was involved with NOAA's involvement with Titanic- i beleive his name is commander Craig McClean (he may have been promoted since then)-very nice chap...
 

Paul Lee

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What other areas inside the wreck are collapsed? During Tony Robinson's Titanic Adventure, the squash court was noted to be "squashed". Also, in Ghosts of the Abyss, just before the D deck reception room panneling was discovered, one of the bots seems to approach a caved in area of ceiling, but I can't make out where this would be on deck plans.
 
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I suspect the squash court is intact- if I'm not mistaken, it had metal walls on all sides (underneath the surface material and paint), so the general shape of that room should remain....

Many a first class passenger (such as Mr Henry Blank) knew at once Titanic was in trouble, when they saw that the squash court filling with sea water....

A common question posed at the Titanic exhibits by some of the visitors was "What kind of squash did they grow in the squash court"?
 
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