What were DE Bristow's Two Mystery Ships

J

John M. Feeney

Member
Hi, all!

In an Amazon.com review of D.E. Bristow's Titanic: Sinking the Myths, "a reader from Los Angeles" makes the following observation:
The famous Mystery Ships (two of them) were never a mystery at all; their names come straight from the records of the British Inquiry into the disaster and have been 'hid in plain sight' for 85 years.​
Assuming the reviewer's comments are correct, can anyone who may have read this book identify the two ships Bristow refers to and briefly describe her logic for citing them as the "mystery ships"?

Thanks very much! :^)
John Feeney
 
John,

Diana's book is still available through amazon.com? That, in itself, is what amazed me about your post. I thought that the book has long been out of print.

It's been a while since I read the book, but if I remember correctly, the two mystery ships were Frankfurt and Mount Temple. Her logic was complex and virtually impossible to re-create here. That is not to say that her theories should be immediately dismissed...any theory with serious thought given to it should be given due consideration. I hope you are able to find a copy of the book and read through it yourself. I may not have agreed with all of Diana's conclusions, but she did provide some thought-provoking material that caused me to explore some areas that I might not otherwise have ventured into.

Parks
 
Parks I do believe one of them may have been the Samson a whaling ship I think somewhere on the board there is a thread about it. I may be wrong though. I was under the impression that the Mount Temple had something to do with the rescue or something along those lines.

Erik
 
Hi, Parks, and thanks! Yes, Amazon.com is currently listing Titanic: Sinking the Myths (paperback) "in print" for $36.95. (A bit steep for me, alas.) They do note 4-6 week's delivery time, though.

In any case, if you decide at some point that those were NOT the two candidates, can you just update me here? The identification is the critical issue. My second biggest question, of course, concerns that intriguing "hid in plain sight" comment. I'm curious how that could possibly be. But I mean that more in the sense of "What's she got up her sleeve?", not as a jab.

Thanks a million!
happy.gif


(By the way, I don't think I ever wrote you on it, but I love your website -- it's one of the earliest Titanic sites I bookmarked "back when".)
 
Hello John, Parks and Erik,

Diana Bristow's two candidates for the mystery ships were, as Parks posted, Mount Temple and Frankfurt. Also like Parks I am loathe to summarise the theories on this, but a lot comes down to the colour of funnels and apparent proximity. (Please note that was from memory.)

The Samson theory does get a work out. But as Samson is most definitely not mentioned by name in the enquiry transcripts, that's not one of the ships referred to as being 'hid in plain sight' all these years.

Parks - I too am surprised that Amazon still, er, have the cheek to list the book as available. It certainly wasn't when I tried to get one that way absolutely ages ago. Although I suppose there's someone out there who will now write in to say their order through Amazon was filled only last month...

Regards,

F
 
Hi, Fiona! Thanks for the confirmation. And Erik, thanks for the tip -- I did do some searching on the Board, but couldn't find the thread.

One more dumb question, and I'll shut up. Do any of you recall what led Diana Bristow to decide that the Frankfurt was nowhere near as far (140 Nmi.) as Knapp had placed her in the US Inquiry?

Oh, Fiona, there's a thread out there on Titanic Books where Mike Herbold had been waiting for this one (and "Titanic RIP") after 2(?) months at his last update. That was back in March, so I wonder if and when he finally got them. Mike, any luck?

Cheers!
John Feeney
 
Hi, John!

Diana found an account by an old German seaman who claimed it was 'common knowledge' in Germany that Frankfurt had been the Titanic's (non-existent) 'mystery ship.' He claimed that Frankfurt had already closed to within visual range of the sinking Titanic when Titanic's wireles operator called Frankfurt's operator a fool; Frankfurt's operator took offense and Frankfurt then steamed away from the sinking Titanic.

My Commutator article on the Frankfurt incident (which makes use of primary sources that were unavailable to Diana) presents an accurate account of Frankfurt's activities that pretty much disproves Diana's scenario.

All my best,

George
 
John,

Thanks for your comments about the website...it's certainly not one of the oldest Titanic sites out there, but it is starting to get long in the tooth. A major overhaul is due, if I can ever get around to it.

I would have to re-read about two chapters of Diana's book to refresh my memory on her logic, but I do remember that she gave great credence to the fact that Frankfurt was one of the first ships to answer Titanic's CQ and that Phillips himself estimated that Frankfurt was the closest ship (aside from Californian), due to the strength of her transmitted signal.

As George mentioned, there is cause to doubt her theory. However, after the arguments have been debated, I personally am left with the nagging question...why did Phillips call the Frankfurt's operator a fool? I don't believe that either the conventional explanation or Diana's theories answers that question to my satisfaction. It's on my list of unanswered questions that may or may not become clearer one day.

Parks
 
Parks wrote:

>I personally am left with the nagging >question...why did Phillips call the Frankfurt's >operator a fool?

Hi, Parks!

Phillips was under the (mistaken) impression that Zippel could hear Titanic's later CQD messages; that being the case, he couldn't understand why Zippel would need to ask "What's up, old man?" and was understandably upset when he received Zippel's query.

All my best,

George
 
George,

Thanks for that, but that's what I referred to as the "conventional explanation" (I first encountered it in 'The Maiden Voyage,' including the bit where Smith muttered into his beard). I've read through the message exchange between DFT and MGY several times and I'm not convinced that actually was the case, although Frankfurt's apparently slow grasp of the situation may certainly have played a part.

Do I have a better idea? No, not yet. All I know right now is that I haven't heard an explanation that sounds right to me yet.

Parks
 
George: Thanks for the clarification. (And I can see I need to invest in some back issues of the Commutator.) Fast ship that Frankfurt, huh? Guess that's just fine German engineering for you! ;^)

(Um. Don't get me wrong, all. It's some questions about Knapp's findings that inspired my query.)

Parks: Well, I'm not one of the oldest Titanic fanatics out here either! ;^) Like George, I take Phillips response to Frankfurt's wireless man as understandable, if perhaps unwise under the circumstances. To paraphrase the situation, it resembles (to me) falling through the ice on a frozen pond at night and yelling to a distant friend to go get help or a rope, then hearing him yell back -- twenty minutes later! -- "What is the matter with U?" (I think I'd be just a little peeved, too.)

Tracy: Well, yes and no. From a recent reading of Captain Moore's testimony, I recall -- I could be mistaken -- that the Mount Temple passed one "outbound" ship while he was heading for the CQD position. This is in addition to that "mystery schooner" headed east, which likewise "parked" on the western edge of the ice field. Busy night, huh?

And -- officially -- the answer's "yes" regarding proximity to the CQD position, but considering Titanic's true wreck location, Carpathia was likely much closer than Mount Temple to the actual pick-up point. (But certainly not anywhere near as close as the Californian!) Plus, Carpathia didn't have to breach that massive ice floe to get there. (Just dodge a few fairly awesome bergs along the way.) And as I recall, Mount Temple reached the vicinity of the CQD position BEFORE Carpathia arrived at the lifeboats' location. (But of course nobody was there at the CQD point.)

Dave Gittins has some very interesting observations regarding Rostron's true proximity on his web site: All at Sea with Dave Gittins

Cheers! (And many thanks to all!)
 
Just a little reminder about the Samson, she was a sailing vessel with a modest auxilary steam plant that was alleged to have been in the area poaching seals. Dave Gittens pretty much shot this one down. Aside from there being nothing illegal about seal hunting, port records for...if memory serves...Isafjorthur Iceland prove that the Samson was nowhere near the area at the time of the sinking. I'll have to hunt up the original thread to refresh myself on this.

Addendum, the thread discussing the Samson was Mystery Ship, The Samson and it's in this folder. Just scroll down there and have a look.

Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
 
After re reading the thread I do believe that you are correct Mr. Standart. The reason I believe it came up was the curator of the U.S.S Cod musem in Cleveland Ohio stated that were the Cod is now was the berthing place of the Samson and that the Samson had been "proven" to be the mystery ship. However after my posting on the other thread and careful research by using the tools provided me by other board members I believe I came to that conclusion sorry I must have been on crack when I thought of the Samson.

Erik
 
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