When Was Britannic Conceived

[Logan Geen]

Hi everybody,
I've been away from the boards for over a year...unfortunately, crushed by the pressures of high school ending, haha. But I am back and the passionate interest I've had in the Titanic has never left.

As it happens I have another small mystery, that to my knowledge has not been brought up here before. Namely...when exactly was the Britannic conceived? The popular answer is that the idea of 3 Olympic class ships was conceived by Lord Pierre and Bruce Ismay over dinner. However, I have read in various "versions" of the story that either (A) The idea of a 3 ship class was immediately conceived; (B) A slight variation, the idea that night was to build 2 ships with the option of a 3rd later; or (C) The idea of the 3rd ship wasn't part of the original plan and was added at a later point.

I was wondering if anyone has any insight. Obviously, by the time Titanic sailed the 3-ship plan was well in place but I am curious as to whether Britannic was really "born" the same moment as her sisters or whether she was more of a late "addition". In a similar vein, Aquitania was the "3rd sister" of sorts to Lusitania and Mauretania, and that ship was definitely a later addition. This doesn't seem to be the case with Britannic...or is it?

Just wondering if anyone has any insight. Hope everyone is well

 

[Michael H. Standart]

To the best of my knowladge, the Britannic was born at the same time as her other two sisters. The goal was maintaining a regular weekly service, which is something that can be done if you have three 21 knot ships. The Britannic was already well under construction by the Time the Titanic sailed, having been laid down on the same slip on 30 Novemeber 1911.

 

[Nicolas Roughol]

Britannic, as we know her, was conceived at several times. Thought of as Gigantic, at the same time than the others. Keel laid...lost one of her sisters...intensive redesign...launched...never really completed...

it's kind of hard to say when she was conceived really. Which makes her more interesting to learn about too.

 

[Jeremy Lee]

Wasn't the Gigantic supposed to be built first in the original plans, but later swapped places with the Olympic?

Thought I read it somewhere.....

 

[Michael H. Standart]

Not that I know of. There may well have been a discussion of what name to assign to which ship, but by the time the Olympic was laid down, that matter was obviously settled.

 

[Dave Gittins]

I agree with Michael on the need for three ships. Possibly it was intended to build three ships from very early on in 1907.

However, I've managed to show that Britannic was not formerly ordered until some time between 1 April 1911 and November 1911, when she was laid down.

White Star used a financial year that ran from 1 April to 31 March. The report for the year ending 31 March 1912, states that a 50,000 GRT ship was ordered during the year. That's obviously Britannic. Good luck to anybody who can find the actual date!

 

[Logan Geen]

Here are some variations on how the third sister was conceived in various sources:

Ken Marchall and Don Lynch "Titanic: An Illustrated History"
-The three sisters are conceived at the same time at a dinner party. Little mention is made of the delay between Britannic and the first two.

Wyn Wade "The Titanic"
-Mentions a pair of gigantic ships "later followed by a third". However, Wade never mentions or references Britannic at all after this.

Robert Ballard "Discovery of the Titanic"
-Describes 'Olympic' class as "two ships later to be followed by a third".

Daniel Butler "Unsinkable"
-Ismay describes and outlines 3 ships at a dinner with Pierre, essentially same as Marshall and Lynch.

Marc Shaprio "Total Titanic"
-Says third ship was added at a later date. Actually mentions the word Britannic once.

There is one another source that mentions that a third ship was "subsquently added" but that source escapes me at the moment. At any rate, after reviewing the sources it sounds like the idea of having 3 liners was always at least in the back of the minds of the owners and builders. Britannic was not an afterthought (the sources claming she came later are not the most reliable) although it is true as Dave says that she wasn't formally ordered until later on. Obviously H&W could not construct 3 vessels of such magnitude together. Perhaps, the Britannic was a tentative plan based on success of the Olympic?

I also find it interesting that there are so many variations (regardless how slight) on the Pierre/Ismay after dinner conversation, I've read some sources that Pierre was a guest of Ismay's, in others it was the other way around. That would indeed have been an interesting conversation.

Also, and lastly, I find it amusing and disappointing that many otherwise excellent sources can mention that three vessels were involved but often forget that Britannic was indeed actually built! Had WWI not intervened, whether Titanic had sunk or not, whether as Gigantic or Britannic she would have been the ultimate culmination of the class. It is sad.

 

[Dave Gittins]

Logan, the chap's name was Lord Pirrie. Oddly enough, I noticed the Pierre version in an old paper today.

I have it on good authority that the famous conversation rests on little more than family tradition. Pirrie and Ismay were friends and they no doubt met in Pirrie's London residence, but I wouldn't take much notice of some of the detailed accounts that are about.

The more I've investigated, the more I'm convinced that Pirrie was the real force behind the Olympic class. As early as 1902, he was pushing for a giant dry dock in Belfast. He obviously wanted to build bigger ships. It's even possible that he ordered the gantry before the three ships were decided on. Pirrie probably sold the idea to Ismay.

Today I came on something I've been hunting for ages, namely a photo of Britannic on the slipway with a sign in front of her, announcing her as RMS Britannic. It was taken when she was close to launching, so it doesn't prove anything about the Gigantic tale.

 

[Logan Geen]

Hi Dave,
I was wondering last night if I had spelled Pirrie's name right. A consequence of writing a post at 1:30 AM I suppose!
I for one do believe that the original name of the 3rd sister was indeed supposed to be Gigantic if only for the reason that the name fits. Britannic (while IMO a much nicer name than Gigantic and certainly very patriotic) just doesn't fit with the other two names, where as several sources have pointed Olympic, Titanic and Gigantic all have similar meanings: Size, power, grandeur. Indeed Gigantic is more or less another word for "Titanic". Even if Gigantic was not supposed to be the name of the 3rd vessel it certainly makes sense why the name would have been chosen.

 

[Jeremy Lee]

>>Today I came on something I've been hunting for ages, namely a photo of Britannic on the slipway with a sign in front of her, announcing her as RMS Britannic. It was taken when she was close to launching, so it doesn't prove anything about the Gigantic tale.<<

What about the slip of 'advertisment' or whatever its called with the word "Gigantic" on it? (see below) Where did it originate from? If this isn't one of WSL's trio, then what ship was it?

 

[Dave Gittins]

Jeremy, it's just a poster that carries no sign on being authorised by White Star or H & W. Note that the ship is painted more like a Cunarder. In those days, ships were the high tech stars and people liked to have posters and postcards of them, just as modern teenagers put posters of pop stars on the wall.

It's true that Gigantic would match the names of the other ships. The Giants were a mythical race that fought the Olympian gods (and lost!). Some of the published material on Gigantic is plain silly. One source gives her measurements as 1,000 feet x 112 feet and a GRT of 50,000. Presumably she had no freeboard worth mentioning, as a conventional ship of that size would be nearer 100,000 GRT. Also, how was she to fit into the Belfast dry dock? The whole tale has no credibility. On 25 May 1912, the Southampton Times explained that the story was started in the American press, based on tale tales from an Olympic steward.

 

[Jeremy Lee]

>>On 25 May 1912, the Southampton Times explained that the story was started in the American press, based on tale tales from an Olympic steward<<

In this case, the Gigantic myth really IS a myth. Thanks for clearing it up, Dave!

 

[Michael H. Standart]

Well, maybe not nesseccerily a myth, but in the wake of the Titanic fiasco, I don't think White Star would have been keen to advertise the fact if they had "Gigantic" in mind as a name.

 

[Jeremy Lee]

But then if following the Titanic disaster, White Star decided not to name the third sister Gigantic even if they had PLANNED to in the first place together with the naming of the first two sisters, then we might have a cover up here, guys!

 

[Scott Newman]

The conceiving of the Britannic is actually very simple...you see son, when two ships love each other very much...namely the Olympic and the Titanic...

I'm sorry I couldn't resist...I'm sure the jokes been done before.