Where was the location of the breakup?

[sir john adams]

I know it has been more than a century. But I'm still a bit confused over where the breakup was. I know the the bow has two funnel bases. And what ever is left of the stern has one. I also know that the stern imploded on the decent to the bottom. So with all this information and using inferences. I have come to to three possible locations. Just forward of the third funnel, just aft of the third funnel, and somewhere directly under third funnel it's self
Those are my conclusion but I would love to have a definite answer

 

[Kyle Naber]

The breakup most likely occured between under and just before the third funnel based on the wreckage. We may never know the EXACT location, but I assume that the area between the locations mentioned was more or less pulverized. However, the new middle piece found in recent years debunks the third and fourth breakup scenario.

 

[Aaron_2016]

Hard to tell as the break up may have occurred in various stages, rather than one clean break, with the bow and stern twisting and buckling until they both separated. The explosion or release of compressed air could explain why the stern section rotated on the surface 180 degrees around until the propellers were hovering right over a collapsible boat. There is a section of wreckage that appears to have been pulled around as the stern twisted around. Perhaps this part was still attached as the stern swung around before separating.

.

 

[Ioannis Georgiou]

Perhaps this part was still attached as the stern swung around before separating.



View attachment 3314


.

That part is the aft end of the enclosed 2nd class promenade on C Deck on the starboard side, far away from the break area.

 

[Aaron_2016]

That part is the aft end of the enclosed 2nd class promenade on C Deck on the starboard side, far away from the break area.

How can you tell, the stern section is such a mess. Do you mean this piece? What would cause the starboard side of the promenade to bend forwards?

.

 

[Ioannis Georgiou]

How can you tell, the stern section is such a mess. Do you mean this piece? What would cause the starboard side of the promenade to bend forwards?

.

Yes that is the part.
Bent forwards? It was pushed to the port side when the stern hit the bottom.

 

[Kyle Naber]

I wonder how high or low in the water the separation was. Did people really see the ship blow itself apart, or did the stern settle back without the front half of the bow? Edward John Buley in lifeboat 10 was questioned at the inquiries:

"Senator FLETCHER: What do you mean by saying she snapped in two?
Mr. BULEY: She parted in two.
Senator FLETCHER: How do you know that?
Mr. BULEY: Because we could see the afterpart afloat, and there was no forepart to it. I think she must have parted where the bunkers were. She parted at the last, because the afterpart of her settled out of the water horizontally after the other part went down. First of all you could see her propellers and everything. Her rudder was clear out of the water. You could hear the rush of the machinery, and she parted in two, and the afterpart settled down again, and we thought the afterpart would float altogether."

Also, I think that there's some testimony which can help us get a better understanding to how the stern settled back.

Testimony of Arthur John Bright, Quartermaster in Collapsible D:

"Mr. BRIGHT. I was 50 to 100 yards away, I would say, when she went down. I could not be exact, but about that.
Senator FLETCHER. Did she break in two?
Mr. BRIGHT. She broke in two. All at once she seemed to go up on end, you know, and come down about half way, and then the afterpart righted, itself again and the forepart had disappeared. A few seconds the after part did the same thing and went down. I could distinctly see the propellers - everything - out of the water."

To me, this seems like the break was steady and progressive in the beginning, but eventually enough decks failed to the point where the stern free-fell back into the water. Here's a video for what I'm refrencing:

(Skip to 0:30)

Although it breaks at the incorrect part, I get the feeling that this is would have looked like pace wise for the first half of the settling. Perhaps at a 12 degree angle, the stern would then, in a sense, smack back down onto the surface, unlike what Cameron depicts in his film in which this occurs the entire time. This could maybe help describe the lack of testimony in the lifeboats experiencing waves during the final moments.

 

[Aaron_2016]

In this radio interview from 1966 survivor Frank Prentice talks about the ship going down by the head while they were loading the aft lifeboats and then the ship righted herself and they were able to lower the boats. This could mean the initial stages of the bending or breaking happened much earlier. When the stern sank down he felt it rise up again like a cork or a float bobbing on the water. This could suggest that the final separation occurred deep below the surface and allowed the stern to bob up to the surface again before it could flood and sink properly.

BBC - Archive - Survivors of the Titanic - Today from the South & West | Sinking of RMS Titanic


.

 

[sir john adams]

There seems to be alot of conflicting points. All of them seem plausible. I have drawn a small little thought over the information collected so far. The bow sinks, the stern begins to rise. But with alot of weight a pressure the steel begins to warp. The beginning of the breakup, the ship goes to port. More strain is added. The bow continuesly losing a bouyancy more stress on the still 100% bouyant stern. The steel continues to warp. Then the plunge begins. The first funnel falls to (starboard I believe) it would be at this time as you say. The ships hull begins to fracture, then the water get to the engine room reducing the lights to near nothing. Making it hard to identify a breakup to those In lifeboats and in the water. The second funnel explodes. And now the bow surges down and pulls the failing stern up. The first "break begins" and the stern settlers back to 12 degrees with only the superstructure and double bottom holding her together, I personally believe that it's at this time the lights go out. And now the bow really starts down. The stern at a different angle to the bow and multiple seperations in the hull would then cause Titanic to sink towards the middle. This would push the bow forward and up. (Something saw in another fourm) any way titanics bow is under the ship is creasing at the middle and the after end of the stern would be sticking up our the water (the propellers and rudder) and finally the stern seperates. And settles back into the water. Not causing a giant wave. But more a large rippling (as experienced by a sailor trying to lash two lifeboats together but couldn't as the water was to choppy. ) The aft funnel then cants backwards and the third funnel falls to port. But at the same time the now free stern section would be rolling over to port. Giving the illusion the third funnel never falls or the third funnel mistaken for the fourth funnel leads some to believe the ship has broken aft of he third funnel. And as the stern rolls to port the propellers come clear and she rotates.(I actually think this is caused by the double bottom holding the ship together. And now the stern begins to rise as well as turn. Until the propellers are over the previous mentioned collapsible and the stern slides away almost like the brittanic as the chief back described the final plunging as riding an elevator. And Titanic is gone. Lightholler depending on his location would have see the stern rise (and given he was close to the water and the ship was sagging, putting the breakup close to the water, and the plain darkness of the setting this was happening) in I believe alot of people would have just seen the stern rising. And In that suffocating dark you wouldn't see it settle back. And because lightholler was close to the water he probably would have just seen the stern slide away at a high angle. And so would many others.



I would love to hear thought on my theory...=)

 

[Kyle Naber]

There seems to be alot of conflicting points. All of them seem plausible. I have drawn a small little thought over the information collected so far. The bow sinks, the stern begins to rise. But with alot of weight a pressure the steel begins to warp. The beginning of the breakup, the ship goes to port. More strain is added. The bow continuesly losing a bouyancy more stress on the still 100% bouyant stern. The steel continues to warp. Then the plunge begins. The first funnel falls to (starboard I believe) it would be at this time as you say. The ships hull begins to fracture, then the water get to the engine room reducing the lights to near nothing. Making it hard to identify a breakup to those In lifeboats and in the water. The second funnel explodes. And now the bow surges down and pulls the failing stern up. The first "break begins" and the stern settlers back to 12 degrees with only the superstructure and double bottom holding her together, I personally believe that it's at this time the lights go out. And now the bow really starts down. The stern at a different angle to the bow and multiple seperations in the hull would then cause Titanic to sink towards the middle. This would push the bow forward and up. (Something saw in another fourm) any way titanics bow is under the ship is creasing at the middle and the after end of the stern would be sticking up our the water (the propellers and rudder) and finally the stern seperates. And settles back into the water. Not causing a giant wave. But more a large rippling (as experienced by a sailor trying to lash two lifeboats together but couldn't as the water was to choppy. ) The aft funnel then cants backwards and the third funnel falls to port. But at the same time the now free stern section would be rolling over to port. Giving the illusion the third funnel never falls or the third funnel mistaken for the fourth funnel leads some to believe the ship has broken aft of he third funnel. And as the stern rolls to port the propellers come clear and she rotates.(I actually think this is caused by the double bottom holding the ship together. And now the stern begins to rise as well as turn. Until the propellers are over the previous mentioned collapsible and the stern slides away almost like the brittanic as the chief back described the final plunging as riding an elevator. And Titanic is gone. Lightholler depending on his location would have see the stern rise (and given he was close to the water and the ship was sagging, putting the breakup close to the water, and the plain darkness of the setting this was happening) in I believe alot of people would have just seen the stern rising. And In that suffocating dark you wouldn't see it settle back. And because lightholler was close to the water he probably would have just seen the stern slide away at a high angle. And so would many others.



I would love to hear thought on my theory...=)

Nice description, but a couple of things are inaccurate. First of all, the first funnel actually fell to port because of the 9 degree and increasing port list. This matches Officer Lightoller's testimony (who was on the port overturned collapsible) of the forward funnel collapsing "inches" away from him. This is an exaggeration, of course, but this indicates a port collapse for the first funnel.


Also, it is physically impossible for the bow to bob back up from the water with a nearly three-hour steady flooding. At the time of the breakup, the bow was almost completely flooded, making it a dead weight that drops like a stone at the point of separation. I think what the survivors who claim that this happened saw was the forward grand staircase lifting from its foundations and being shredded apart when it shot out of the dome. Once the dome imploded, a cylindrical column of water would invade the area (much more catastrophic than what the film depicts) and because of the buoyancy of the oak in the staircase, it floated against the water and lifted up. This actually is what happened on the set of the 1997 movie set. The stairs were built almost exactly as the real ones were and they lifted up as they shot the dome implosion scene.


Take a look at what happened:

(Skip to 2:00)


This would also help explain why there were reports of large amounts of wood floating on the surface the next day.


Here is what I believe happened from the point of the bridge beginning to drop underneath the waves:


The band finishes playing their last song, "Propior Deo," and the ship takes a sudden dive. This is the bow accelerating downwards. The port list increases by a few degrees. Four explosions are reported as this point. In my opinion, this could either be the beginnings of the breakup or exploding boilers. The base of the first funnel becomes submerged by about 20 feet and the funnel caves in due to the differential pressure between the water and trapped air, sending it down to port. As the bow continues to drop, the skylight over the dome of the grand staircase implodes, and the stairs are forced up and out of the ship, giving some the impression that the bow rose back out of the water. Coal dust ignites in the bowels of the ship and shoots an explosion in the form of a ball of fire out of the second funnel. This funnel kicks to starboard toward survivor Jack Thayer and smashes in the gymnasium. The stern begins to lift out of the water, exposing the rudder and propellers. At this point, Titanic is now rotating at her new center of buoyancy upwards. At 23 degrees, the ship breaks apart somewhere between just before or under the third funnel. The break begins slowly and the stern gradually settles back until it's halfway down to being back on a level keel. At around 15 degrees left until the way down, the stern drops "like a cork" and remains there for about 20 seconds. The main electrical power supply is cut as a result of severed pipes and cables, but the emergency lights remain on, allowing the stern to be sparingly dotted with light. The bow swings down, but half of the keel is still attached to both halves, slowly dragging the stern upwards and to port, allowing it to perform a 180. At an angle of about 60 degrees (as described by Lightoller) the emergency lights go out. Because of the mass of trapped air left in the stern, it explodes out of the windows and decks of the superstructure. The refrigeration units explode and people as blown off the sides of the ship. This is all a part of the roaring noise described by survivors. The ship detaches in complete halves and the stern drops down into the water at 2:20AM.

 

[sir john adams]

Nice description, but a couple of things are inaccurate. First of all, the first funnel actually fell to port because of the 9 degree and increasing port list. This matches Officer Lightoller's testimony (who was on the port overturned collapsible) of the forward funnel collapsing "inches" away from him. This is an exaggeration, of course, but this indicates a port collapse for the first funnel.


Also, it is physically impossible for the bow to bob back up from the water with a nearly three-hour steady flooding. At the time of the breakup, the bow was almost completely flooded, making it a dead weight that drops like a stone at the point of separation. I think what the survivors who claim that this happened saw was the forward grand staircase lifting from its foundations and being shredded apart when it shot out of the dome. Once the dome imploded, a cylindrical column of water would invade the area (much more catastrophic than what the film depicts) and because of the buoyancy of the oak in the staircase, it floated against the water and lifted up. This actually is what happened on the set of the 1997 movie set. The stairs were built almost exactly as the real ones were and they lifted up as they shot the dome implosion scene.


Take a look at what happened:

(Skip to 2:00)


This would also help explain why there were reports of large amounts of wood floating on the surface the next day.


Here is what I believe happened from the point of the bridge beginning to drop underneath the waves:


The band finishes playing their last song, "Propior Deo," and the ship takes a sudden dive. This is the bow accelerating downwards. The port list increases by a few degrees. Four explosions are reported as this point. In my opinion, this could either be the beginnings of the breakup or exploding boilers. The base of the first funnel becomes submerged by about 20 feet and the funnel caves in due to the differential pressure between the water and trapped air, sending it down to port. As the bow continues to drop, the skylight over the dome of the grand staircase implodes, and the stairs are forced up and out of the ship, giving some the impression that the bow rose back out of the water. Coal dust ignites in the bowels of the ship and shoots an explosion in the form of a ball of fire out of the second funnel. This funnel kicks to starboard toward survivor Jack Thayer and smashes in the gymnasium. The stern begins to lift out of the water, exposing the rudder and propellers. At this point, Titanic is now rotating at her new center of buoyancy upwards. At 23 degrees, the ship breaks apart somewhere between just before or under the third funnel. The break begins slowly and the stern gradually settles back until it's halfway down to being back on a level keel. At around 15 degrees left until the way down, the stern drops "like a cork" and remains there for about 20 seconds. The main electrical power supply is cut as a result of severed pipes and cables, but the emergency lights remain on, allowing the stern to be sparingly dotted with light. The bow swings down, but half of the keel is still attached to both halves, slowly dragging the stern upwards and to port, allowing it to perform a 180. At an angle of about 60 degrees (as described by Lightoller) the emergency lights go out. Because of the mass of trapped air left in the stern, it explodes out of the windows and decks of the superstructure. The refrigeration units explode and people as blown off the sides of the ship. This is all a part of the roaring noise described by survivors. The ship detaches in complete halves and the stern drops down into the water at 2:20AM.

Thank you.
And I would like to clarify a few things
When I meant the stern pushing on the bow I did not mean the bow came up out if the water. I meant it rose afew feet in the water. This intern would cause the water to displace and if this correspons with the resurfacing of the grand staircase would lead to some (jack Thayer ) to the conclusion that the bow has comeback from the waters .probably should have said that.

And thank you I always that the first funnel feel to starboard. But I wasn't really sure. Thank and I hope you understand my theory better now

 

[Kyle Naber]

Thank you.
And I would like to clarify a few things
When I meant the stern pushing on the bow I did not mean the bow came up out if the water. I meant it rose afew feet in the water. This intern would cause the water to displace and if this correspons with the resurfacing of the grand staircase would lead to some (jack Thayer ) to the conclusion that the bow has comeback from the waters .probably should have said that.

And thank you I always that the first funnel feel to starboard. But I wasn't really sure. Thank and I hope you understand my theory better now

Oh no, I didn't think you meant that the bow rose up like the stern, I knew what you meant. It's all a part of something called the "V Break Theory." You can search it up yourself here on this site and read through the discussion. I, myself, think it has many flaws however.

 

[sir john adams]

I would also like to add in the explosions those in lifeboats heard as the plunge began.
I have two possible reasons
First. This is the boilers leaving their beds, and or exploding with contact of the cold Atlantic water. (I favor the second one . For multiple other reasons.)

And second it is whole sections of hull popping out. (If you bend a milk carton in the water like Titanic with one end down (the old cardboard boxes) and bend it. You will notice that the sides directly under the point you are bending the sides would go out.) I Imagine the same happened to the hull of titanic. As the hull is bending (not breaking mind you) but bending. Not to extremely large but enough that hull rivits are failing. (This would come on into play later) and plates coming loose, and electrical lines seperates. And I will just add this in here but I think that would be the second to last stage in the breakup

 

[Aaron_2016]

The first funnel fell to starboard as the bridge wing on the starboard side is badly crushed. Survivors also saw the funnel fall over to starboard. e.g.


Colonel Gracie:
"The forward funnel broke from the ship, falling on the starboard side into the sea."

Charles Lightoller
"The terrific strain of bringing the after end of that huge hull clear out of the water caused the expansion joint abaft number 1 funnel to open up. The fact that the two wire stays to this funnel on the after part led over and abaft the expansion joint, threw on them an extraordinary strain, eventually carrying away the port wire guy, to be followed almost immediately by the starboard one. Instantly the port one parted, the funnel started to fall, but the fact that the starboard one held a moment or two longer, gave this huge structure a pull over to that side of the ship."


I believe the forward expansion joint opened which snapped the wires that held the funnel in place. This could explain why that funnel fell before the others. The expansion joint is wide open on the wreck. (see below). We have always assumed that the collision with the seabed caused it to open up, but what if it actually happened on the surface as the weight of water bent the bow downwards or possibly the weight of the stern after it buckled and canted upwards then forced the back of the bow down, bending the ship backwards and forcing the expansion joint to separate.

When the ship began to break and twist apart, both sections would lose buoyancy and rock uncontrollably.

Survivor John Haggan: "The ship was shaking very much, part of it being under water. On looking up at it, I could see death in a minute for us as the forward funnel was falling and it looked a certainty it would strike our boat and smash it to pieces."

Lightoller said - "Finally, the ship took a dive, reeling for a moment, then plunging.....There was an explosion....There was another explosion, and I came to the surface.....The ship seemed to be heaving tremendous sighs as she went down.....The ship had turned around while I was under the water."


.

 

[sir john adams]

 

[sir john adams]

nearing the point when midship rivets fail

 

[Kyle Naber]

I really like Parks Stephenson's animation. It's quite accurate compared to today's simulations even in 2006!

 

[Kyle Naber]

Charles Lightoller
"The terrific strain of bringing the after end of that huge hull clear out of the water caused the expansion joint abaft number 1 funnel to open up. The fact that the two wire stays to this funnel on the after part led over and abaft the expansion joint, threw on them an extraordinary strain, eventually carrying away the port wire guy, to be followed almost immediately by the starboard one. Instantly the port one parted, the funnel started to fall, but the fact that the starboard one held a moment or two longer, gave this huge structure a pull over to that side of the ship."

I have a hard time believing that a single guy wire could pull an immense funnel against gravity.

 

[sir john adams]

I have a hard time believing that a single guy wire could pull an immense funnel against gravity.

I do to

 

[Aaron_2016]

I believe the "shaking" and "reeling" of the ship would throw the funnels over as the bow and stern rocked from side to side as they tore and twisted each other apart until they broke free. Survivors saw all 4 funnels intact when she broke. At the Inquiry they said there were 2 explosive sounds up to 20 minutes apart. One was heard before she sank, and the second during the sinking. Lightoller said the ship was gradually listing more to port and when the last boats that were forward were ready for lowering the ship "got a righting movement and maintained it". Frank Prentice said the last boats that were aft were ready for lowering when the ship was going down by the head and he then felt the ship had righted herself and they were able to lower the boats aft. First thing that comes to mind is that the ship was bending or breaking already at this early stage. It may not have been noticeable to those far away in the lifeboats, but to those aboard it was. The righting sensation may also have been caused by the coal bunker in boiler room 5 bursting and the water rushing aft via the open watertight doors and filling the ship in the centre which would ease away the downward tilt for a while until she finally broke apart. e.g.

Albert Pearcey was in collapsible C which was the last boat lowered on the starboard side.

Q - Did you notice when you rowed away whether the ship had any list?
A - Yes, the ship had a list on her port side.
Q - Did you notice whether she was down by the head?
A - No, I did not notice.
Q - Did you notice whether she appeared to be going deeper into the water forward, did you notice that?
A - No.
Q - Did you see the vessel go down?
A - Yes.
Q - Were you facing her when she went down?
A - Yes.

Charles Joughin was in the stern section when collapsible C was lowered.

"I did not notice anything. I did not notice her being much down by the head."
Q - Do you mean that the list to port was more serious?
A - I thought so.
Q - Than being down by the head?
A - I thought so, yes.


I believe the ship was already beginning to buckle and the sea was flooding the centre of the ship and the sides were splitting open and allowing water to enter. If the two explosive sounds were 20 minutes apart then there may have been a breach in the hull which allowed the sea to flood the centre of the ship for 20 minutes before she finally sagged in the middle and broke. The bow would then take a sudden plunge before bobbing and reeling as the water roared in from the back. I believe very little focus is ever made on the breach of the hull caused by the break up and if this was a gradual breach that allowed several compartments in the middle to flood before she broke more severely and what effect this would have on the angle of the ship as she sank.


.