Where were they

  • Thread starter Daniel Rosenshine
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Daniel Rosenshine

Guest
This is of course directed at anyone who may be able to help in the mystery of three passengers.

I have a copy of a list that is supposed to be Titanic’s Southampton departure list. It mentions 180 names of passenger bound for New York.

Amongst those 180 people are names of a Mr. A. Melody and a Mr. J. White, ticket numbers 111423 and 111424 respectively. As you might be able to tell, the ticket numbers are along the same lines as those of the known gamblers aboard Titanic, who's tickets are Haven - 111426, Brayton - 111427, Rolmane - 111428. The ticket numbers are also similar to those 10 gamblers that traveled on the Olympic: tickets 111420, 111421 and 8 people booked under ticket 111422.


Since White and Melody’s names appear on Titanic’s Southampton April 10 1912 boarding list, this would mean there were at least two other gamblers aboard the Titanic. The names of Melody and White also appear on the passenger list saved by Mrs. Thayer. Her list mentions 318 names but 7 names are omitted, they are of; Carter manservant (Cairns), Mrs. Cassebeer, Mr. Lindberg-Lind, Mr. Mock, Mr. Omont, Mr. and Mrs. L. P. Smith. This would give a total of 325 first class passengers and 326th would be Nourney, who upgraded from second class.

If the names of Melody and White appeared on the Southampton list and an on board passenger list, where did they go. Why and how did they disappear from the history of Titanic.

George Behe told me “a Harrisburg, PA newspaper article (datelined Southampton, April 17, 1912) says that White and Melody failed to embark.” But amongst them was also the name of Schabert, possibly Mrs. Schabert who did sail aboard Titanic. This means that the newspaper may be wrong and that they possibly sailed, unless proven otherwise.

Other passengers who originally booked but cancelled were

Craig Mr. Norman C., K.C., M.P. (what ever that means)
Eastman Miss Anne K.
Lewis Mrs. Charlton T.
Holden M.A., Rev. J. Stuart
Lawrence Mr. Arthur
Wood Mr. and Mrs. Frank P.

Neither of their names appeared in the newspaper, implying that they perhaps cancelled before the voyage rather than failing to show up. Yet in the early stages after the disaster, US papers printed the above names amongst the missing passengers, possibly implying that the people were a no-show as well. In this case the Harrisburg newspaper might not be entirely trusted for accuracy.

This leads to another thing. Most if not all people would know of the story that Mrs. Harris told. When Titanic left Southampton it had a near collision with a liner New York, as the passengers watched from the decks above. Amongst them were Mrs. Harris and a male passenger. As Mrs. Harris recalls in 1932:

“I learned from a stranger standing next to me that the cables of the New York must have been broken by the force of the suction created by our giant engines.
He turned toward me and said, ‘This is a bad omen. Do you love life?’
‘I love it,’ I replied.
Then get off this ship at Cherbourg, if we get that far. That’s what I’m going to do.’
I laughed it off and quoted the glowing accounts I had read of the unsinkability of our steamer. I never saw him again. He may have landed at Cherbourg.”

As some of you may have seen from the Cave list, which is available on this site, Mr. Arthur Lawrence was booked to travel on the Titanic, cabin E37. His name also appears on the Southampton list (same list as for White and Melody) but does not appear on Mrs. Thayer's list. Since her list would have been printed after the people boarded at Cherbourg, it might be no doubt that Mr. Lawrence is not there ….. if he landed at Cherbourg. With the above 7 names (from the Cave list) of those who supposedly cancelled or did not travel on the Titanic, Arthur Lawrence’s name is the only one that appears on the boarding list, yet not on the passenger list printed aboard Titanic. My theory with the proof given above is that Mr. Lawrence was the mystery man Mrs. Harris had talked to.

Phil Gowan or anyone that may have information on Mr. A. Melody, Mr. M. J. White and Mr. Arthur Lawrence, your help will be appreciated. Any other feedback is welcome too.

Daniel.
 
Dec 2, 2000
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Dear Daniel,
Just wanted to say that I enjoyed reading your post. I have no idea of any of the information, but I truly enjoyed reading all that you have researched. Thanks. Maureen.
 
Apr 25, 2001
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Dear Daniel Rosenshine,

Messrs Melody and White did not embark, that is why they are to be found on no passenger list. They are mentioned nowhere else; in no document whatsoever in connection with the disaster. There is of course a small chance they eventually boarded using assumed names, but that chance is rather slim since all of the first class passengers are accounted for and thoroughly identified.

Best regards,

Peter
 
Nov 22, 2000
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Daniel,
As an aside, Norman Craig's initials (K.C.) M.P. stand for King's Council - indicating that he was a barrister at law. M.P. stands for Member of Parliament.
Geoff
 

Mike Poirier

Member
Dec 31, 2004
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Miss Annie Eastman and Mrs. Charlton Lewis were sisters. They are on the list, but didn't sail.( I believe relatives of Eastman-Kodak ). They eventually did more travelling and sailed the George Washington in early 1913
Daniel: I think you've built a strong case.
 
Jan 5, 2001
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A further aside. According to the New York World on April 19th, Mrs Lewis had been in Europe as a chaperone to Miss Eastman. Mrs Lewis was from Greenboro, North Carolina. She and Miss Eastman had been travelling with the Compton family. Why they changed their minds, and why they didn't sail with the Compton's the article didn't say.
Craig Stringer
 
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Daniel Rosenshine

Guest
Hi,

Peter: How do you know that they definitely did not embark? Both names appear on the boarding list and then again both names appear on a passenger list printed aboard ship. Arthur Lawrence's name is on the boarding list but not on the passenger list. If indeed it was a mistake that his name was on the boarding list, then the mistake was corrected on the passenger list. More likely he did board the ship but left at Cherbourg. All I'm trying to say is that if Melody and White were mentioned on the boarding list as a mistake, then there is a good chance they would not have been on the passenger list printed after Cherbourg. I don't think that their mention on both lists is either a coincidence or mistake, there must be more to it.

Many 1912 newspapers always printed the total of first class passengers as 325. Excluding Nourney, Melody and White, the accepted total is 323 first class passengers. Why then was the total given as 325, was it because Melody and White were passengers? And if they were not, and cancelled or failed to show up (like many others did) then why were they counted as passengers whilst others weren’t.

The first time that the total of passengers drops to 323 is in 1915. White Star Line issues a ticket and price list on 23 Nov. 1915. This list mentions 323 first class names and 21 Cross Channel passengers. The accepted total of Cross Channel passengers is 22. Of them 15 landed at Cherbourg and 7 proceeded to Queenstown.

Some might know that Father Browne is not on the list. No, he is not mentioned as one of the adults amongst the Odell party. It clearly says that ticket #84 was booked by Mr. Odell for 6 adults and that the family received a 4 pound refund, another words only 5 out of 6 people traveled: Mrs. Odell, her son, sister and her two brothers. Father Browne did not travel with them. From the book on Browne and his photos, it is clear that his ticket was booked separately. I don’t know much about Nichols, but Father Browne could have been traveling under that name. If Nichols is indeed a totally different individual, then we come to the conclusion that Father Browne is not on the so-called "correct" passenger list. Had it not been for Father Browne’s photographs from the maiden voyage, one may wonder whether he would have at all been known to be on the Titanic. His fate may have been alike that of Melody and White — if they were on the Titanic.

If one has read George Behe’s 1982 gambler article, then they would know more about the gamblers mentioned. After the disaster, on April 17, wireless messages were sent by two of the gamblers on the Carpathia (Haven and Brayton) as according to a newspaper. The first message gave 3 names of gamblers believed to have gone down with the Titanic and later that day another was received giving a further two names of “Buffalo” Murphy and James Gordon as also having gone down with the ship, as they were not on the Carpathia. Mr. J. White was the usual alias that “Buffalo” Murphy used during his travels, and I presume Mr. A. Melody was James Gordon’s alias. George did say that the newspaper was eccentric and not very reliable, however so were most newspapers in those days and now. In accounts about the Titanic many false facts and stories were printed amongst the truth, thus making the reliability of an account doubtful. Perhaps the mention of “Buffalo” Murphy and James Gordon was true whilst the names of others were not. On top of the fact that Bradley and Haven supposedly mentioned the names, there was a boarding list and a passenger list to prove that Melody and White were possibly on board.

White and Melody were gamblers and would have naturally kept a low profile. If they died in the disaster and a false report announced them as "no-shows" then it was easy for White Star to drop them off their list as on-board passengers.

I’m not trying to solely prove they were aboard. I’m trying to convey why I think they were. They may very well not have been, so that’s why I posted this message, to find out. Perhaps someone out there has solid proof that they did not board or sail on the Titanic.

Someone out there may know more about Melody and White. IF they did stay behind, which ship did they later cross on, perhaps someone knows of them being alive after the disaster. If someone may know or suggest a ship, I’ll try checking ship records to see if they were on board that ship.

Geoff: Thank you for the clarification of what K.C M.P stood for.

Does anyone agree with my Harris/Lawrence theory?

Daniel.
 
Dec 2, 2000
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Your arguments are very good Daniel. It will be interesting if anyone has proof for what you have presented here. Often it is not until someone poses a question that answers are even seen.
I wish you luck.
Maureen.
 
Apr 26, 2005
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Daniel: Your idea on the Harris/Lawrence conversation is indeed very clever. You got me thinking about it all day. Considering all the aspects, I think your theory, unless someone can argue against it, is extremely well-done and quite possible. I do hope a man of experience such as Mr. Findlay/Gowan/Behe could drop a line in this wonderful topic, adding a word of expertise aside our presumptions. Daniel, I will keep an eye on the subject. The truth may come to light earlier than we believe...Who knows?

Best wishes,

Charles
 
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Daniel Rosenshine

Guest
Hi,

Are we going to start accepting the possibility that there were two extra first class passengers aboard. I don't want to think that there were two other first class passengers if there really wasn't, but with what I presented above, it may be a possibility.

Michael Findlay? Anyone?

Daniel.
 

Pat Cook

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Apr 27, 2000
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Dear Daniel,

I've been going over such few texts I have on the matter and now believe you have a valid theory here, albeit a little more corroboration would not hurt. The Lawrence/Harris exchange may indeed have occurred (I'm trying to find out if she was the woman Beesley mentions who regarded the whole event as a 'bad omen' myself so I'm on the fringe of this one already.)

Also, for what it's worth, you mentioned that among those missing on Mrs. Thayer's list was Mr. Lindberg-Lind. If I remember correctly, he was traveling under the name of Edward Lingrey. In fact, I believe, Jack jr. ran into him before he and Milton lept from the ship.

Keep us posted as to how your research turns out on this one.

Best regards,
Cook
 
Apr 25, 2001
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Dear everybody, on the official White Star Line passenger list for the Titanic, revised June 6 1912, Messrs Melody and White are not mentioned. There is absolutely no mention of them anywhere else either, and I honestly don't think they were on the ship at all;

*There are no claims for them
*There are no obituaries for them
*Nobody mentions them on the ship
*They are included in no lists of survivors
*There are no interviews with them afterwards
*They are mentioned in neither the American Senate passenger list nor the White Star Line passenger list revised June 6 (they mention 325 passengers including von Drachstedt and Slayter)

Best regards,

Peter

Peter
 
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Daniel Rosenshine

Guest
Peter: White and Melody were gamblers, there may not have been claims for them. We don't know their gambling career or family status. They may have had no family or none that new about their whereabouts, thus they would not claim for them. Gambling would not have given them obituaries, as they would have been known to a few. Few people mention gamblers and when they do, the names are kept anonymous. There are various unidentified gambler sightings, Harris and Silvey being two of them and I believe Mrs. Futrelle mentions the same incident as Harris. Provided that those gamblers were not given specific names, leaves room for Melody and White.

They did not survive, and the other three survived by luck, they too could have easily added to the body count. Since they did not survive, there would not be interviews with them and at least one newspaper claims that Brayton and Haven proclaimed them amongst the missing.

Perhaps the fact that they are missing from all lists other than a boarding list and a passenger list printed on board, may be the proof they were not on board.

It seems that if they did not board Titanic, they did not receive a refund, thus implying they could have taken a later liner. Here's the trick though. The next White Star liner to leave Southampton would have been Oceanic Wed. 17 April 1912. Would they have waited for that ship? Would they have been transferred to a ship from another company or a sister company? Would they at all have traveled having recently heard of the disaster had they stayed to sail on the Oceanic?

Pat: although Beesley was allowed to explore first class, I doubt he would have still been there when the ship was departing. By that time he would have been in the second class section and I believe he was on the boat deck, thus any passengers he conversed with were second class as well.

Neither Lindberg-Lind nor Lingrey are on the Thayer passenger list.

Sincerely,

Daniel.
 

Mike Herbold

Member
Feb 13, 2001
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Daniel:
Where was I in the first two weeks in October that I missed these great postings?
My 7C's reprint of the first and second class passenger lists also shows A. Melody and M.J. White.

Why do none of the gamblers, including Brayton and Haven, show up on the Cave List? Brayton and Haven show up on the other passenger lists, and were definitely on the ship.
Where did you get the Southampton list with the ticket numbers from Titanic and Olympic, by the way?

I received your off-line message OK, but whatever you did it messed up my ability to reply, which is why I'm posting here.
 

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