Which Astor is this chap

A

Addison Hart

Guest
We've all seen the photograph of Waterloo Station's Titanic Boat Train, most notably prominent in Geoffrey Marcus' excellent book Maiden Voyage. But who is this chap in the picture, standing prominent to the left, in a black suit with the bowler. He is often identified as Col. JJ Astor, but this is impossible. Ol' JJ was in Cherbourg, after all. So who is this guy? I've heard that it was his cousin, Waldorf, or the chap who married the Lady Astor who was such a pain in the neck for Winston Churchill. So who is this chap anyway? Please answer at the earliest possible opportunity, thank you. I must know by April.

God bless,
Have a Blessed Easter,
Addison Hart
 
R

Randy Bryan Bigham

Member
Addison,

I don't know that it's ever been established who this man is. I recall seeing the picture for the first time in an early edition of A Night to Remember. He was identified as J.J. Astor but this has since been challenged, as you have noted.

Personally I'm wondering if the picture is indeed of Col. Astor but taken at an earlier time. I recognize the platform as Waterloo but do we know that the picture was taken in April 1912? Did it appear in the press at the time?

Sorry to bring up more questions.

Hopefully others will know better as to the actual date of the picture and who is in it. If it is the Titanic's boat train pictured there, who I wonder are the other ladies and gentlemen on the platform?

Randy
 
A

Addison Hart

Guest
Thank you, noble sir.

Blast! No-one is sure, eh? Guess that's yet one more thing to chop out of the Chronology for this year.

Anyway, thanks!
God bless,
Addison
 
B

Ben Holme

Member
Addison and Randy,

The man in question was probably William Waldorf Astor, cousin of JJA. In 1897 he built the Waldorf Hotel, later to become the Waldorf-Astoria. He moved to England in 1899 after falling out with his wealthy cousins, hence his presence in Waterloo. The photograph was one of several photographs of the boat train in Waterloo snapped by Fr. Browne on the morning of 10 April 1912.

Randy brings up the point about the other ladies and gentlmean on the platform. In all likelihood, these were either passengers bound for Titanic or well-wishers seeing them off.

Interestingly, some passengers appear to have been confused as to which Astor was sharing their voyage to New York. E.P. Colley wrote home that "W.W. Astor" was among the notables on board.

Hope this helps,

Regards,
Ben

(Message edited by benedict on March 31, 2002)
 
D

Daniel Klistorner

Member
This was a photo by Fr. Browne, so I'm sure he knew that he took it on April 10, 1912. He did write it was Mr Astor to "To see us off!" If this particular Mr. Astor was boarding the Titanic, there would be no need for him to "see us off" so he was obviously some other Mr. Astor that was not going on the Titanic, and as Ben pointed out it was probably William Waldorf Astor.

I found a record on the Ellis Island site for a "Waldorf Astor" 36 yo, London resident, who crossed on the Baltic in Sep of 1912. Is this the same guy?

Daniel.
 
R

Randy Bryan Bigham

Member
16955

WALDORF ASTOR in 1909

Addison,

In checking through some pictures, my own and some that are online, I'm convinced that the man in question is the younger Waldorf Astor (1979-1952), son of William Waldorf, 1st Viscount Astor (1848-1919).

Waldorf, a Tory leader and later owner of the Observer newspaper in London, would have been about 32 or 33 in the picture taken at the station with the Titanic's boat train. His wife was Nancy Astor, the first woman to take a seat in Parliament.

16956

WALDORF ASTOR

It will be interesting to find out just whom it was Astor was seeing off that day at Waterloo. Another politician? Perhaps W.T. Stead? Or Christopher Head?

Randy


PS) Photos are clear of copyright; bottom pic from LOC negative, dated 1903.

(Message edited by rbigham on March 31, 2002)
 
A

Addison Hart

Guest
Thank you, Ben and Randy, this is who I suspected it was in the photograph when I began looking up information on all the Astors a few months back. I'm still looking for things for Titanic and Her Times, which is why I was looking up things on old Waldorf originally. Thanks for answering my questions so quickly, I have the info I need. I won't include it in the Chronology, but it's very interesting to know all the same. Either Stead or Head would be a good guess.

God bless,
Happy Easter,
Addison
 
Kate Bortner

Kate Bortner

Member
Randy you crack me up. Is your house just filled with photos???? I'm looking for an unusual photo of Edwardian actress Nance O'Neil. Got one in your collection??
Grin

-k8
 
R

Randy Bryan Bigham

Member
Kate,

Dear one, my life is a photo - a very scratched up, tarnished one at times I admit! As to Miss O'Neil, I know a bit about the lady and have some pictures of her. Have you seen this one?

17022


Or this one?

17023


I will send more by email. I have tried reaching you several times by the way. Have you gotten any of the messages?

Randy
 
Kate Bortner

Kate Bortner

Member
Great pictures. I've never seen either.
No I haven't received any e-mails from you since we talked last week.
Try [email protected] again if you'd like but I'll only be at it for another month or so. My aol should be in working order. Let me know if you don't have that address.
Thank you so much for these photos. I've always found her interesting. (she had a friendship with Miss Lizzie, ya know.)
-kate.
 
John Clifford

John Clifford

Member
Question, about William Waldorf Astor: could he have arranged for some items to have been brought to Southampton, on April 10, 1912.

Also, he moved to England, but did he ever keep in touch with John Jacob Astor?
I seem to recall a Masterpiece Theater series, on Nancy Astor: at one point she made a rather ill-timed comment about how the family will perservere, "even if one of our members goes down on the TITANIC". William then made it clear that John Jacob Astor's death was, indeed, a family tragedy, and he was quite upset by it.

John Clifford
 
D

diane porter

Member
does anyone know if Marcel Navratill is still alive?
 
B

Beatrice Kaiser

Guest
Hi you guys!
Have you got some quotations of J.J. Astor or Madlen?
If you have some, would you please send them to me?

Thank you!!

Love, BEa
Happy
 
D

Dr. Douglas B. Willingham

Member
Hi, Beatrice!

This one's well-known:

"A man who has a million dollars is as well off as if he were rich."

John Jacob Astor

Best regards,
Doug
 
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