Which Californian controversey book is the most accurate in your opinion

John, you mention "emotional backlash". I would think the use of the word "contemptible" does indicate some emotion. Non-emotionally laden words to convey your opinions of Harrison, etc, would be "wrong", "mistaken", and so on.

John said:

I'm also very puzzled that many have responded to Eric's posts, but not to his points!

No one has responded to Eric's points because of his "case closed" attitude, the "I've made up my mind, don't bother me with other ideas" tone. We all have better things to do than beat our heads against a wall.....

And as most of us have found through experience, it's not worth turning this board into a pissing contest, as such Californian discussions here tend to turn into.

But I'll say that I'm still of the opinion that one cannot make informed comments on any sort of material that one has never read. Come on guys, read the book. It won't bite, I assure you.

In closing, what Mike says pretty much sums it up for me:

"If you want to say that A, B, and C, closes the debate...fine. We'll have nothing further to discuss on the matter and I hope no hard feelings. (I won't have any such.) For myself, I'll go looking around, give everyone a fair hearing, do own fact checking, and keep my own counsel on who I agree with and who I don't."
 
"No one has responded to Eric's points because of his "case closed" attitude, the "I've made up my mind, don't bother me with other ideas" tone. We all have better things to do than beat our heads against a wall....."

With all due respect, my "case closed" attitude on Captain Lord's negligence stems from the fact that those on your side will *not* respond to points A, B, and C and that's the consistent thing I've been noting. I have not hesitated to go into detail as to why I feel as I do that the matter of Captain Lord's negligence should not be a subject of controversy based on the documented historical record (he was thrice notified by Stone and Gibson about white rockets; and then he lied afterwards and covered up), and it seems to me that if the other side wants to be critical of my position, then they shouldn't simply tell me to spend my money on a book, they ought to engage in a dialogue focusing on the critical points I have made. To characterize my posts as "don't bother me with the other side" is neither nor fair nor acccurate because repeatedly I have asked questions related to the points that I, as an anti-Lordite, feel must be answered by any new study in order for it to be worth my while, and this I am just not seeing.

I reiterate: How can Captain Lord be exonerated of negligence if points A, B and C are not going to be refuted? I think those on the other side would be better served answering that question.
 
Well, who's turning this into a pissing contest? Certainly not Eric! (Certainly not I.) I believe Mr. Paddon has posed a perfectly reasonable, well-framed set of criteria that none of the Lordite persuasion have even remotely addressed. To be frank, it strongly *appears* that no substantial opposition has been offered regarding those three points because there *is* no reasoned response to them other than, "True."

Whatever impression of closed-mindedness you may have concerning Eric, why not just formulate a sound rebuttal to those three key issues for the benefit of the entire Board, so maybe we can all stop piddling around in the dark and be made fully aware of the merits of this Lordite position? To date, all it ever seems to boil down to is a vague claim of "I'm not convinced ...". Nevertheless, a robust body of evidence does exist, and the *specifics* of it are rarely challenged in earnest. Could it be that it's not Eric who's closed-minded here?

And as Mister Paddon asked, if those three criteria aren't appropriate in your mind, what objective criteria would you apply in assessing Lord's guilt or innocence?
 
Um...what personal conclusions I've drawn about this matter are probably closer to Reade's than any other author, so I don't know if I'm lumped in with the 'emotional backlash' John perceives! Having voiced in the most emphatic way agreement that the Californian saw rockets, I don't see that as an issue of contention so have left it unaddressed.

Eric stated that The process of evaluating history is not one of a constant state of mutual uncertainty about the truth of an event. Experience with those who had the misfortune of formally instructing me in historical methodology at Sydney University, as well as my own subsequent dabbling in various historical fields, has taught me that 'history' is a highly artificial construct and a constant battlefield of ideas and interpretation. The pendulum of revision and counter-revision swings constantly, and advocates of ideas aggressively contend with their interpretation. Personally, I don't have a problem with this.

In the case of the Californian, I have absolutely no brief to exonarate Lord or his crew, or desire to do so. I believe that the evidence establishes that distress rockets were sighted from the Bridge of the Californian. I'm still savagely jetlagged, so hopefully can get away with just reciting the following anti-Lordite catechism [you'll have to forgive me for the phrase 'anti-Lordite', John - it's easier shorthand for some of the more cumbersome phrases describing my position in relation to the Californian's crew]. I believe that the crew on watch were aware something was amiss. I've lost count of the times I've declamed as the argument's clincher - often across a restaurant or pub table - Occam's razor (in Latin if the memory is up to it on the day)...usually with a defiant ring of 'and that settles that' to the tone.

I don't forsee that broad view changing (unless someone produces something very new and very startling). I do believe, however, that there is room for discussion and assessment over the culpability of individual players - Lord's admission that there was a slackness on the Californian I take as correct, but who was slack and to what degree? Lord, I believe, covered up after the fact (as did several of his officers), but what exactly did he and his officers do or not do, and why did they do (or not do) what they did? That is far less clear to me, and I think the case is far from closed.

As for other issues regarding the mystery ship, such as whether there was another ship sighted from the Titanic, it is here that I find the ground far more slippery. Molony first strongly inspired me to challenge my complete acceptance of Reade's interpretation of events, but it was Boxhall's and Lowe's words that really made me wonder...

Perhaps Reade is correct about the ship the Titanic saw - I'm very willing to concede that is a possibility. At the same time, I have to confess to doubts and acknowledge that the other side can be argued very effectively as well.

I'm not trying to 'subtract the Californian' (in Reade's memorable phrase). What I'm simply trying to do, as a student of certain historical events, is come to a fuller understanding of both what happened and why it happened as it did. If you're absolutely certain in your own mind that you know the truth in all its broad and intimate detail, then good luck to you and God go with you in your delightful certitude. I'm afraid, though, that I feel considerable discomfort with that. It doesn't sit particularly well with my own critical thought processes.

As I said in another thread, I make the basic assumption that those on this board participating in this discussion are neither fools, knaves, intellectual charletons or blithering idiots. Those who have actually read Senan Molony's book - some of whom have posted to this board - are among the most well-read Titanic researchers in field...and their praise of the book is warm and enthusiastic. To what do those who have not read the book, yet presume to attack it, attribute these responses? Do you think we are fools, knaves or charletons?

John wrote:

Reade's work, on the other hand, is a scholarly tome -- a solid, factual history. I don't agree with *all* of his conclusions either. But I can identify with a high degree of certainty what he based them on, via those copious endnotes. Reade's analysis proceeds from readily identifiable research, not from his own mere say-so.

This not only very precisely expresses how I feel about Reade, but also how I feel about Molony's book. I have - and continue to - debate issues pertaining to the 'mystery ship' at great length with him. He is very well aware of the points on which I disagree with him, and has always extended to me the courtesy of believing my position - even when at its furthest from his own - an honourable one based on my own attempts to understand and interpret events as best I can with the data to which I have access.
 
Inger wrote: "I don't know if I'm lumped in with the 'emotional backlash' John perceives!"

Inger: Not at all. And as for myself, I don't presume to attack the book, only the premise apparently proferred that it somehow vindicates Lord. On that we appear to be in complete agreement.

But since this thread does not deal strictly with Senan's book (not that it usually matters), and since those three critical observations have been introduced, I for one would sincerely like to see them addressed by those who seemingly find them objectionable or irrelevant. (Which, of course doesn't include you.) Those three crucial issues are perennially danced around, but seldom squarely dealt with, by the would-be supporters of Captain Lord. (If they were, I doubt we'd be hearing allegations of any "controversy" at all.)

Not having had the good fortune you've obviously enjoyed in interpersonal dealings with Mr. Molony, I doubt my conceptions on that particular topic will change any time soon. But saying that doesn't label anyone as a "fool, knave, or charlatan"; it merely indicates a genuine difference of opinion on the author and subsequent reluctance to part with "the green".

Tracy: Simply "wrong" or "misinformed" would be woefully inadequate as descriptions of Harrison's work. "Randomly crossing over from non-fiction to fiction" is far closer to the truth.
 
Im not dismissing points A, B or C, but what about the fact that the Californian was signaling the ship they saw with their morse lamp at the time the Titanic was sinking, if the Titanic saw a ship and the boats were sent towards it why did no one on the Titanic see the Californians attempt to contact them?
 
One possibility, and it has been mentioned on another thread on this same topic, could be that there were icebergs between ' Titanic' and ' Californian ' ( if we accept that it was ' Californian ', if only for the sake of argument ). If these were in motion, due to currents, then could it have been the case that the view was periodically obscured, if not on occassion cut off entirely ?

Hence

- ' Titanic ' does not see ' Californian ' signal,

- the bridge officers on ' Californian ' periodically lose sight of their mystery ship
 
Seeing a Morse lamp from ten miles away (the likely distance) is not a guarantee on Titanic's part and IMO is a total irrelevancy on the matter of what ship Californian saw. The relevant matter is the rockets, which came from the ship Californian saw (this point is not subject to debate. In the statements of Gibson and Stone it is clear they knew the ship they were watching fired them, and Gibson once saw the contrail of a rocket rising through binoculars. This latter point is something I remember Diana Bristow trying to insist never happened)
 
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