Who was the most negligent Captain on the night of the Titanic disaster?

[Jim Currie]

Hello Sam:

" just wonder exactly what experience Smith had, if any, navigating regions of ice at night?"

As far as I can determine, Smith worked for the WSL for 32 years before the Titanic incident. Most if not all of these years were on the North Atlantic run at all times of the year. Having been on that run myself, I think you can be very sure that he had more than sufficient experience of navigating in the vicinity of ice at night.

Captain Moore was a very experienced ice hand. However he had an advantage over Smith. He told the UK Inquiry that he received a specific ice warning on April 13:

"9226. On the 12th April did you receive a message from the "Corinthian" informing you that there was ice? A: - On the 13th April.
9227. Where was that ice? A: - 42° 15' N. and 49° 48 W.; 41° 25W' N., 50° 20' W."
9230. And in consequence of that information to what did you alter your course? A: - Just a little to the southward of that, because I went straight down to 50° W.; instead of going down to 52° and 47° W., I went down to 50° W. and 41° 201 N.

Corinthian. It advised him of ice 42° 15' N. and 49° 48 W.; 41° 25' N., 50° 20' W. He therefore went down to 41° 201 N." If he went to 41-20'N, ( I presume the "1" after 20 is a typo)he only went 5 miles south of where the ice had been reported. Not a huge diversion despite the information being 24 hours old.. If Smith had done the same thing and acted on the more recent information received that ice was at 41-51'North then if he went to 41-46'North, 5 miles to the southward, he would have been taking exactly the same precaution as did captain Moore.
However, Moore told a different tale to the US inquiry.. he told them:
" I received a message from the Corinthian saying that one of their vessels, the Corsican, had seen ice at 41º 25' north and 50º 30' west. I immediately steered down to pass 50º west in 41º 15' north, sir - that is, I was giving the ice 10 miles - and I came down and saw no ice whatever."

Strange that the 10 miles in the US became 5 miles south of the ice in the UK.

Incidentally, Moore knew full well the power of the Commissioner of Wrecks. A simple request for MTs log book would have cleared-up any doubts of how far south of the ice he took his ship.

Jim C.

 

[Samuel Halpern]

>>However, according to Hemmings, Murdoch said they were actually in the ice region. They were not and I cannot for any reason understand why Murdoch should say so. <<

Shows you that people's memory of what other people had said may not be that reliable. Most likely Murdoch told him that they were going to enter a region of ice. By 7:15pm the temperature was already dropping fast.

 

[Jim Currie]

This thread is all about culpability, blame and incompetence. Is there perhaps another at whose door the blame might tentatively be laid? What about the President of the United States of America?

OK, it's a devious long shot but consider the following.

The President is the Commander in Chief of the US armed forces. That includes the US Navy. One of his subordinates, Captain John J. Knapp USN, gave a great deal of verbal and written evidence to the US Senate Committee convened to Inquire into the loss of Titanic. In his evidence to the Us Senate Committee, among other things, Captain Knapp specifically stated:

"Whenever reports are made which have immediate effect upon the safety of navigation, they are given at once to the maritime community and the public generally and are again flashed out to the sea by means of radiograms, the latter, as a rule, from the wireless stations under the control of the Navy Department......For more than a quarter of a century the Hydrographic Office of the Bureau of Navigation, Navy Department, has been publishing graphically from month to month a series of charts known as the Pilot Chart of the North Atlantic Ocean, depicting thereon the physical conditions of the ocean and of the atmosphere for the current month, as well as the location of dangers to navigation as reported by incoming ships. A summary of these dangers and a more detailed description than the space on the pilot chart would permit was in time given from week to week on a printed sheet known as the Hydrographic Bulletin. These publications were circulated freely among the shipmasters and shipping people in return for their news of the sea,.Practically all the captains in the trans-Atlantic trade cooperate in this work by handing in their information upon arrival in port to the branch hydrographic offices. In recent years the collection of marine data has been immensely accelerated by the use of radio telegraphy and the Hydrographic Office is thereby enabled to publish daily in a so-called daily memorandum whatever important reports of dangers have been received. The Hydrographic Office, prior to the 14th of April, was constantly receiving reports of ice in the North Atlantic. These reports began to come in early in the winter, as the ice moved down to the eastward of Newfoundland. These ice reports as received, as heretofore stated, are given out to the maritime world daily, and prior to the 14th of April, in what is called the Daily Memorandum issued by the office, there had been on several days ice so published that had been reported near the spot of the Titanic disaster.This sheet is prepared every afternoon.
".

Ships like Titanic and Carpathia were in touch with US land stations for news so why didn't the US navy broadcast ice warnings based on intelligence received from ships docking between April 10 and 12th? Particularly when they knew that the ice was much farther south than usual that year.

Perhaps if Titanic had received an ice bulletin from Washington, we might not be having this discussion?

Jim C/
PS The buck stops at the boss. .

 

[Doug Criner]

Capt. Knapp was one of the president's subordinates? Along with how many thousands of others then serving in the navy?

I reread Capt. Knapp's testimony of May 18, 1912. He explained that the Hydrographic Office issued a daily memorandum of ice conditions, but is was compiled only from reports received by the navy from merchant or other ships. (There was then no ice patrol as since came into being.) According to Knapp's testimony, the navy's daily memorandum for the days before the accident were replete with ice reports for the area in question. It seems that the navy was doing this voluntarily as a service to mariners - even though the ice was much closer to Canada and Denmark (Greenland) waters than the U.S.

President Obama will be relieved to know that it appears that he and his predecessors are off the hook. Jim, may I extend to the president your compliments?

 

[Alex F]

I reread Capt. Knapp's testimony of May 18, 1912. He explained that the Hydrographic Office issued a daily memorandum of ice conditions, but is was compiled only from reports received by the navy from merchant or other ships. (There was then no ice patrol as since came into being.) According to Knapp's testimony, the navy's daily memorandum for the days before the accident were replete with ice reports for the area in question. It seems that the navy was doing this voluntarily as a service to mariners - even though the ice was much closer to Canada and Denmark (Greenland) waters than the U.S.

Are you sure that Smith, Rostron, Lord, Moore ever seen icebergs or icefield in that area?
One might sail 32 years back-and-forth on route (Europe - New York) and never met an iceberg there worth to talk about it.

Have you seen yourself an iceberg at that route whenever? (Not near Greenland or North Pole)

BR

Alex

 

[Jim Currie]

I can only re-quote Captain Knapp, Doug :

"Whenever reports are made which have immediate effect upon the safety of navigation, they are given at once to the maritime community and the public generally and are again flashed out to the sea by means of radiograms, the latter, as a rule, from the wireless stations under the control of the Navy "

Surely if there was a dangerous ice barrier across the prescribed track for west bound vessel within a thousand miles of the US coast. the above rile would have applied? After all, Senator Smith et al were at great pains to seek justice for American citizens on board Titanic and were prepared to risk a diplomatic rift to do so.

Tell Barak I look forward to his next phone call via Skype.

Jim C.

 

[Doug Criner]

Tell Barak I look forward to his next phone call via Skype.

I don't have to. The National Security Administration is monitoring all the world's phone calls, email, and internet postings.

 

[Jim Currie]

Perhaps I should converse in Glaswegian Gaelic from now on?

If your listening-in lads and lassies... give my regards to your President and a request that he phones Nicola Sturgeon and congratulates her and at the same time asks her how she did it?

Jim C.

PS tell him he can buy my book "The Scapegoat" on Amazon. He might learn something about a "Californian" if he does.

 

[Adam Went]

Hi all,

Apologies for my lack of presence on this thread over the past few days, sadly there are some busy transitions taking place in my world at the moment. However, thanks to everyone for keeping up another lively discussion and hopefully we can get some more members involved!

Cheers,
Adam.

 

[Samuel Halpern]

>> Is there perhaps another at whose door the blame might tentatively be laid? <<

I'm afraid NOT. At 11:52am ATS he received a message from Baltic that specifically indicated that ice was reported only 2 miles north of Titanic's route in long 49° 52' W. Smith acknowledged receiving that message at 2:57pm ATS. He even shared that message with Ismay as we all know.

As Master of the Titanic, Capt. Smith was the one ultimately responsible for the safety of those on board. Given the information that we know was available to him, he did not take similar actions that others had taken as his ship was knowingly, by him and his officers, entering a region of reported ice. As I pointed out before: He did not divert his ship's course. He not think it necessary to slow down. He did not think it necessary to put the engine room on standby. He did not think it necessary to post additional lookouts, nor did he remain on the bridge along with the OOW. He did none of these and paid the ultimate price.

 

[Jeff Wilson]

One could make a case of Negligence for any of the three. The results of the Night/Morning of April 14/15 eventually cost two of the three.

As far as Captain Smith is concerned, this is simply a case of 20/20 hindsight. He knew they were travelling into a region of ice and left instructions for the watch when he left the bridge at 9:20....."If it becomes at all doubtful, let me know, I will be just inside." Its very easy 1 day later or 103 years later to state that they should have reduced speed or adjusted their course to a more southerly route.......However, As has been discussed here many times over, the standard practice was to maintain speed and course so long as visibility conditions were favorable. Visibility conditions are where the issue becomes less clear. While the night was calm and clear (as corroborated my multiple witnesses), there is no doubt as to whether visibility was an issue. There is no doubt because an iceberg was not spotted with sufficient time and/or distance to perform a successful avoidance maneuver. Thus, if there is any negligence on the part of Smith.....Then it lies in not correctly assessing the visibility conditions of that night.

Captain Lord......I see this one pretty cut and dried. Rockets were fired from the Titanic. Rockets were seen from the bridge of the Californian. Insufficient action in regards to those rockets were taken by the crew of the Californian. I don't care if there was a flotilla of mystery ships between them. It doesn't matter if Stone relays this information correctly/incorrectly to Lord or not. Lord is ultimately responsible for the actions of the OOW....again....Rockets observed.....Not nearly enough action taken.

I am of the belief that very few if any lives if any would have been saved even if the Californian had taken action upon seeing the Rockets, or even if Evans would have remained awake and heard Titanics CQD......that aside, an attempt at assistance should have been undertaken. Even if that attempt was an assessment by Lord that deciding to steam over to render assistance would have potentially put his vessel in peril. From reading the inquiries, the only assessment made was to reach the ship my morse lamp. I am also of the belief that Lord realized this in the morning, thus prompting the subsequent obfuscation/modification of certain details regarding that night.

Captain Rostron. He was unequivocally the HERO of the entire incident......At least according to the press and many of the Titanic passengers. In reality, he was lucky. The fine line between Credit and Blame (or Hero....Goat) is always determined upon result. The result was that Rostron reached the survivors in very good time and probably saved the lives of several of the passengers (re, the ones who spent time in the water and were more susceptible to exposure) by dodging and weaving thru the ice. However, one false move, or one instance of bad luck and that could have been a compounded tragedy.

 

[Adam Went]

Hi Jeff,

Again we seem to be basically in agreement, especially in regards to the Californian. It isn't so much a questioning of what they did do as opposed to a criticism of so much more they could have done which they didn't do. Others here would argue that there was no requirement or evidence for them to do so, but given their situation that evening, IMO this is not a reasonable excuse.

As for Rostron, the case against him seems to be built entirely out of IF's. It is a fine line between being a hero and a villain, but as I've said before, if Carpathia had arrived on the scene an hour or two later, the situation could have been far different and more lives may have been lost.

Cheers,
Adam.

 

[Jim Currie]

Hello Sam.

I understand from the work of Dr. Paul Lee that on he morning of April 14, Smith received a specific ice warning from Captain Kroll of the Holland America Line ship Noordam. It was worded as follows. I quote from Paul Le's work:

"Captain SS Titanic Congratulations on new Command had moderate w[ester]ly winds fair weather no fog much ice reported in lat 42.24 to 42.45 and long 49.50 to 50.20 Compliments Krol." The reply was as follows; "Captain Noordam. Many thanks had moderate variable weather throughout compts Smith." The message was relayed to the Titanic via the "Caronia".

If Smith did indeed receive that message then he had been advised that the ice was in fact over 30 miles to the northward of his intended track.

But what of that Caronia ice warning?

Caronia did send an ice warning to Captain Lord of the Californian. it was worded as follows:

"Westbound steamers report bergs, growlers, and field ice 42º north from 40º 51', April 12.

BARR."

Exactly the same warning was sent to Smith the following morning of April 14

Knowing that the Caronia information was 2 days old and knowing that ice normally moved ENE in that area, Smith would judge that the Caronia ice and the Noordam ice were one and the same and that it had moved north and eastward for 24 miles. A reasonable assumption?

"Perhaps the term 'warning' is not technically correct because the message from Baltic was not a MSG. However, it was a message from the master of one vessel to the master of another vessel that contained information that might affect the navigation of a vessel."


You wrote that yourself Sam. You use the expression 'might effect'. Obviously Smith did not think it might effect his ship's progress but he nevertheless took note of it and made sure his men were aware of the part concerned with ice.

Jim C.

 

[Jim Currie]

"Lord is ultimately responsible for the actions of the OOW....again....Rockets observed.....Not nearly enough action taken."

Not strictly true Jeff. Lord was ultimately responsible for theconsequences of the actions of his crew.
In reality, his job was to assess the information being given to him and to take action or otherwise depending on that assessment. Obviously he was not told something that caused him to react in the way hindsight suggests he should have done.

However, here's a question for you and everyone who has published an opinion of what Lord should have done.

Supposing Lord had called his wireless operator... what direction do you think he should have steamed in once he heard the bad news?. Should he have gone in the direction he eventually did when he eventually discovered the plight of Titanic or should he have steamed out of the pack ice and headed south east in the direction of that nearby vessel?

Jim C.

 

[David G. Brown]

Exactly, Jim -- where should he have gone? And, I think there is something else nobody wants to consider. It was his considered decision as Master of Californian to stop because of the danger of ice around the ship. Given that his first responsibility was to the lives and vessel entrusted to him, why would he have done anything at all? What right would he have had to risk the lives of his crew just because some other captain had made a series of bad decisions that night?

-- David G. Brown