Who was the most negligent Captain on the night of the Titanic disaster?


Jim Currie

Member
In other words, you choose not to tell what you would have done, but to tell a small detail of what you would not have done.

(By the way, the who was there bit was Capt. Moore who went at full speed to the reported position until he started to encounter ice. The same Capt. Moore who you also expressed a distrust of. But you knew that I knew that.)
You really should try not to selectively read the evidence, Sam.
There was no suggestion to Moore that Titanic was sinking until well after the time he turned toward her. He did not put his engines on stand-by until he started meeting ice nor did he increase his lookouts until then. When he did meet the ice, he stopped, then proceeded ahead slowly. On the other hand, friend Rostron kept going at full belt, zig-zagging around icebergs until he almost hit one. Now you tell me who was the most negligent.
 

Thomas Krom

Member
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The Marconi room of the RMS Carpathia was located on the roof of the second class smoke room and was separated in two areas, one was the Marconi wireless room itself, with a small silent room in it, and the sleeping quarters of the Marconi officer's. It potentially had room for two wireless operators.
 
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Hi Jim, Sam!

I'll put in my two cents-sorry if I made any errors or incorrect Conclusions:

Rostron was reckless, yes, but he had no idea as to what condition Titanic was in, the last they heard of her was "Engine Room Filling" or something like that, right? He most likely figured that perhaps he could get there before she disappeared and save more lives than the 712 in the lifeboats.

Rostron, at least, as he was rushing through the night, increased lookouts on Carpathia's bow as well in the Crow's Nest so they would have double the awareness and avoid a second tragedy.

I don't know much about Capt. Moore, so I can't say much, but it seems to me Moore had no idea to the tragedy, and from what I read, didn't see Titanic explicitly, only a green light about 3 O'Clock.

9250. You saw a green light?
- Yes, of a sailing vessel.

9251. Did you see the ship herself?
- Not at all; it was dark.

9252. You could only see the green light, and I suppose beyond that you know nothing more about the schooner?
- No.

Could that have been Boxhall's green flare from Lifeboat 2?
 
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and from what I read, didn't see Titanic explicitly, only a green light about 3 O'Clock.
From his description of the event it was a sailing vessel that cutting across his bow. It was not a stationary light. The light disappeared as his vessel went more than 2 points aft of the sailing vessel's starboard beam. It was MT's obligation to give way, and Moore did so by turning MT to port. Nothing mysterious about it Cam.
 
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US Inquiry: When Cottam was question by Senator Smith. I understand the captain to say that the last messages told the sinking ship that they within certain distance and coming fast. But I got no acknowledgment.
Later on Senator Smith asked Cottam: When you received that last call from Titanic, that her engine room was filling with water. Cottam did acknowledged message and took message to captain Rostron.
If the flooding has reach the engine room it means that the boiler rooms are underwater. No steam for the engines and Rostron is not an idea captain, as that tells him the ship in serious trouble and requires urgent assistance.
If he through the rule book out of the window to safe lives that what call common sense. His preparations beforehand like ordering hot drinks coffee, tea, soup and food. Blankets and cabin space for the survivors, lowing lifeboats, rope ladders, nets and bosun chairs. Where they in the rule books?
Nearly hit an iceberg, that good as mile miss. After all isn't that what a captain is paid for!
Negligent NO. Common sense YES
 

Jim Currie

Member
Hi Jim, Sam!

I'll put in my two cents-sorry if I made any errors or incorrect Conclusions:

Rostron was reckless, yes, but he had no idea as to what condition Titanic was in, the last they heard of her was "Engine Room Filling" or something like that, right? He most likely figured that perhaps he could get there before she disappeared and save more lives than the 712 in the lifeboats.

Rostron, at least, as he was rushing through the night, increased lookouts on Carpathia's bow as well in the Crow's Nest so they would have double the awareness and avoid a second tragedy.

I don't know much about Capt. Moore, so I can't say much, but it seems to me Moore had no idea to the tragedy, and from what I read, didn't see Titanic explicitly, only a green light about 3 O'Clock.

9250. You saw a green light?
- Yes, of a sailing vessel.

9251. Did you see the ship herself?
- Not at all; it was dark.

9252. You could only see the green light, and I suppose beyond that you know nothing more about the schooner?
- No.

Could that have been Boxhall's green flare from Lifeboat 2?
Hello, Cam. Nice to see you having a go.

I would point this out to you:
Captain Moore of the Mount Temple was in exactly the same position as was Rostron, only a little nearer. He got the distress around the same time and turned toward the casualty around the same time but was 3.5 knots slower. He did as Rostron did regarding lookouts. However, the moment he sighted ice, he stopped and then proceeded with caution toward the casualty. Rostron did not do this. In fact, Rostron kept up his speed, dodging between icebergs, while thinking "they must still be afloat". It was not until very near the end of his mad dash, that he realised he was seeing flares from a lifeboat. Think about it.
 
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Hello, Cam. Nice to see you having a go.

I would point this out to you:
Captain Moore of the Mount Temple was in exactly the same position as was Rostron, only a little nearer. He got the distress around the same time and turned toward the casualty around the same time but was 3.5 knots slower. He did as Rostron did regarding lookouts. However, the moment he sighted ice, he stopped and then proceeded with caution toward the casualty. Rostron did not do this. In fact, Rostron kept up his speed, dodging between icebergs, while thinking "they must still be afloat". It was not until very near the end of his mad dash, that he realised he was seeing flares from a lifeboat. Think about it.
Jim you are beginning sound like a union man working to the rule book. If that is the case and were in Rostron shoes you would of two days to get there!
 
Apologies Sam for the trivia from me the other night. But as the only active thread on these matters currently it seemed relevant to matters pertaining to the Carpathia.

Yes, Seamus I do think that Lloyds revamped archive during covid have uploaded lots of stuff. Lloyds required sets of plans and much else to evaluate a vessel for insurance purposes. Harland and I went through The Californian stuff, and I believe I briefly looked at the Carpathia stuff. If I get a chance I will post a few links. Perhaps our Moderators can advise where best they can be added on here. We certainly have from Lloyds (now) the original blueprints for The Californian and it's boilers and Lloyds inspections, and quite a lot from later on in 1913.

I will have another look at the Lloyds stuff on the Carpathia.
 
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The Marconi room of the RMS Carpathia was located on the roof of the second class smoke room and was separated in two areas, one was the Marconi wireless room itself, with a small silent room in it, and the sleeping quarters of the Marconi officer's. It potentially had room for two wireless operators.

Hi Thomas,

I think you might be not a little surprised in respect of my trivia in respect of recent findings with all due acknowledgement to Paul Lee on his website.

This idea that Marconi wireless operators had their quarters (living accommodation) in a shed on the top deck, always adjacent to the AC generator and their equipment on ships not built later on, I don't find is supported by the evidence, though I hasten to add I am no expert at all on such matters.

On The Californian, when the Marconi apparatus was installed in 1911, I am of the view that the Mail Room (incidentally underneath the Chart Room and wheelhouse ) was utilised and adapted for the 'Marconi room'. It was in the level/deck used for passenger accommodation, and the Officers quarters, and dining rooms etc. No shack on top.
 
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Incidentally, and I must stress I have no expertise in this, was The Californian's 'deviation book' altered from 1911 onwards to account for a big DC to AC generator for the Marconi apparatus underneath the compass in the wheelhouse and it's companion in the flying bridge above ? (Assuming my view that the Marconi apparatus was located in what had been the Mail room).
 

Seumas

Member
Apologies Sam for the trivia from me the other night. But as the only active thread on these matters currently it seemed relevant to matters pertaining to the Carpathia.

Yes, Seamus I do think that Lloyds revamped archive during covid have uploaded lots of stuff. Lloyds required sets of plans and much else to evaluate a vessel for insurance purposes. Harland and I went through The Californian stuff, and I believe I briefly looked at the Carpathia stuff. If I get a chance I will post a few links. Perhaps our Moderators can advise where best they can be added on here. We certainly have from Lloyds (now) the original blueprints for The Californian and it's boilers and Lloyds inspections, and quite a lot from later on in 1913.

I will have another look at the Lloyds stuff on the Carpathia.
Good stuff Julian ! This should be interesting.

Swan-Hunter had either lost or junked their original set of blueprints of the Carpathia decades ago, unfortunately. Researchers had been using the surviving blueprints of her two "half-sisters" Ivernia and Saxonia as a guide to Carpathia instead.

If Lloyds really do have Carpathia's blueprints, then this is a pretty big development !
 

Jim Currie

Member
Good stuff Julian ! This should be interesting.

Swan-Hunter had either lost or junked their original set of blueprints of the Carpathia decades ago, unfortunately. Researchers had been using the surviving blueprints of her two "half-sisters" Ivernia and Saxonia as a guide to Carpathia instead.

If Lloyds really do have Carpathia's blueprints, then this is a pretty big development !
It depends on whether Carpathia was built to class according to Lloyd's Classification Society. I undertand that Titanic was not.
 
My sincere apologies to Seamus and others but I was in error in suggesting that Lloyds Register updated online archive included the Carpathia.

I checked today. The Laconia is there and the Mauritania.

I will contact them direct to try and establish a few more details. However, I can confirm that The Californian stuff has been put online by Lloyds.

Again, my apologies for my error.
 

Seumas

Member
My sincere apologies to Seamus and others but I was in error in suggesting that Lloyds Register updated online archive included the Carpathia.

I checked today. The Laconia is there and the Mauritania.

I will contact them direct to try and establish a few more details. However, I can confirm that The Californian stuff has been put online by Lloyds.

Again, my apologies for my error.
Think nothing of it, Julian mate.

It's a shame that Swan-Hunter never held onto their own plans for the Carpathia :(
 
On the other hand, friend Rostron kept going at full belt, zig-zagging around icebergs until he almost hit one. Now you tell me who was the most negligent.
According to Rostron: "It was in the nighttime. I can confess this much, that if I had known at the time there was so much ice about, I should not; but I was right in it then. I could see the ice. I knew I was perfectly clear. There is one other consideration: Although I was running a risk with my own ship and my own passengers, I also had to consider what I was going for."

He seemed to confess that if he had known there was so much ice about he should not have gone running with a full head of steam. Yet he eventually started to see the ice but did not slow down. Why? He put it this way: "Of course it was a chance, but at the same time I knew quite what I was doing. I considered that I was perfectly free, and that I was doing perfectly right in what I did."

I'm not quite sure how to react to that statement. It sounds like someone who was more than a bit overconfident in themselves, with a defiant disregard for danger or consequences once the danger was realized. Yet when Moore came up to the ice, he slowed down and eventually stopped at the barrier, and would not attempt to cross the ice, even when it became daylight.
 
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