Why are they making a Titanic II?


Mark B

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Everything about this project now screams abandoned, however I so want it to be real. I know the construction in China is not ideal, nor would the maiden voyage be. However it's the closest we've got. Do you think there's any chance this project may still go ahead?
 
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Everything about this project now screams abandoned, however I so want it to be real. I know the construction in China is not ideal, nor would the maiden voyage be. However it's the closest we've got. Do you think there's any chance this project may still go ahead?
If the Chinese say that it`ll be built - then I`m sure it will be (at the worst possible quality, no doubt).

@Aaron_2016 - Wow, I didn`t know any of that. But you`ve said yourself that those things might not seem like a big deal to someone outside the UK - perhaps none of the perceived offensive stuff to the British was intentional. On the other hand, perhaps it WAS intentional on the part of the "experts" who were giving James Cameron advice (they might have had certain biases), but I highly doubt that Cameron himself wanted to alienate such a large market in order to make some sort of a statement about a civil war that happened a hundred years ago and far away from where he lives.
 
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If the Chinese say that it`ll be built - then I`m sure it will be (at the worst possible quality, no doubt).

@Aaron_2016 - Wow, I didn`t know any of that. But you`ve said yourself that those things might not seem like a big deal to someone outside the UK - perhaps none of the perceived offensive stuff to the British was intentional. On the other hand, perhaps it WAS intentional on the part of the "experts" who were giving James Cameron advice (they might have had certain biases), but I highly doubt that Cameron himself wanted to alienate such a large market in order to make some sort of a statement about a civil war that happened a hundred years ago and far away from where he lives.


Which "Civil War"? American or Irish? The Irish Civil War took place from 1921-1923 after the anti-treaty mob wouldn't accept the vote of the Irish people, some nine years after the Titanic sank, and yes there was extreme sectarianism in the yards where the sisters were built, but the Home Rule Bill had yet to be enacted which thanks to World War One never was, and ultimately the Conservatives and Unionists supported by the British Government wrecked the Bill completely, much as the Tories rule by dictate today.
So I don't see what the Civil War, American and certainly the Irish has to do with Cameron's thinking if at all, even though the British Officers were portrayed in a poor light and during my time as an Engineer Officer in the British Merchant Navy, yes we did have one once, I only met one Deck Officer that would even come close to being as bad as those portrayed in Cameron's movie, and he was a Master!!!!
 
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Aaron_2016

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When I mentioned the civil war I was referring to 'The Troubles' which (if you lived through it) certainly felt like a civil war, especially in Belfast. The film was released at a time when Ulster was still a hot powder keg and the terrorists who wanted a united Ireland were very much active and getting US financial support which finally stopped after the 9/11 attacks when there was a crackdown against funding terrorist organisations.

The film was a great box office smash, but the last thing Ulster wanted was to have the Titanic (a great achievement) to be used as a political tool to support the continued Irish cause for freedom and make the British the enemies, especially at a time when negotiations for peace were still delicate. I think that was one of the reasons why the film lost in every category at the British awards the following year.


Rewinding back to 1912. That was a very big year for Ulster. Winston Churchill was deeply despised and riots were a common occurrence because of his meddling and his repeated speeches for Irish Home Rule. In one instance his car was overturned in an attempt to kill him but there was a lady present in the car and that moment of hesitation saved his life. In February 1912 Churchill came to Belfast for another Home rule speech but thankfully the venue was changed for his own protection and his visit was cut short as his welcoming reception was certainly not welcoming. Sir Edward Carson addressed the people of Belfast from the balcony of the Ulster Club and said if Churchill had persisted in holding his talk at the Ulster Hall the Unionists were ready for war and would take up arms to resist his efforts for Home Rule and fight for every square inch of ground and would never surrender. - A speech no doubt Churchill would later use during WW2.


In April 1912 the Prime Minister announced the Third Home Rule Bill. Below is the response from the people of Ulster - particularly those working at Harland and Wolff shipyards.



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Certainly gives you the mood of the city and the workforce of Harland and Wolff a few days after the Titanic left Belfast.


On the 28th September 1912 'Ulster Day' the population who sided with the British signed the Ulster Covenant - A pledge to defy Home Rule by all means possible. Soon after tens of thousands of guns were smuggled in to defend Ulster against any Irish uprising, as the British government at the time would not commit themselves to defend Ulster and it was up to the men and women of Ulster to protect themselves against the Irish.


In 2012 we held a celebration in Belfast to mark the centenary of that remarkable day in 1912 when the people of Ulster from all classes came together in unity against the Irish.



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Sadly more than a century later the conflict between Ulstermen and Irishmen is still going on.


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@Roy Buchmueller - I was referring to the same thing Aaron_2016 brought up. I am no historian and I didn`t know that those "troubles" weren`t considered a civil war, per se, although I assumed that it was a civil war, because of the way Aaron_2016 had worded it.
 
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Aaron_2016

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Back in 2005 there was a plan to build a full scale wire-framed model of the Titanic at her dry dock in Belfast. Sadly just one of many Titanic projects that never got off the ground. Would have been an incredible sight.



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Harland Duzen

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That would have been an excellent idea!

Then again, it would have obstructed the view of the dry-dock, since tourists like to walk down inside it.
 
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Aaron_2016

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Very true. It is quite an experience. I played a recording of Titanic's whistle on a loud speaker inside the dry dock. The sound echoed across and was very eerie. They now charge £5 per person to enter the dry dock.


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TimTurner

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I like to challenge the notion that one thing is offensive and another is not. Much of this is culturally interpreted, or personally held beliefs, rather than objectively offensive. And there's nothing wrong with that per se.

The ship sank over 100 years ago. Everyone involved is dead, even the survivors and most of their relatives. the Titanic is now history, just like the crusades, the pyramids, the Roman empire, and the American civil war.

The 1997 movie romanticized the sinking, and is the reason the Titanic is popular in China. Chinese couples posing on the bow of the Titanic saying "I'm king of the world" is no less offensive to me than Kate Winslet and Leonardo DiCaprio doing so.

I think part of this is that in Western culture, the world "theme park" is synonymous with "insipid and shallow". Is Disneyland wrong for showcasing "Great moments with Mr. Lincoln", a 5 minute theme park show where the 10 year old audience listens to an assassinated man discuss a bloody war that killed hundreds of thousands? - it's all in how you look at it.
 
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In 2003 British audiences voted 'Titanic' to be the worst film ever made. I believe it was simply the way in which Cameron portrayed the British. Everything was made to please an American audience with bias against the British. i.e. Make the English characters evil or dumb and make the Americans and Irish heroic. e.g. Lightoller's plan was to lower the boats half full and then fill them up from the gangway doors. The film made him look like an idiot who did not know what he was doing and had to be instructed by Thomas Andews. They gave Thomas Andrew an Irish accent when he was British with an Ulster accent. Captain Smith was very active throughout the entire evacuation, but Cameron made him do nothing and go into shock during the evacuation. Titanic was built in Ulster in a district that was Loyalist, Protestant, and proud to be British and aggressively against the Irish, and that same year there was a vote for Irish home rule which largely divided the country as it determined who were loyal Ulstermen of the King and Empire and who were Irish and loyal to the Pope. In Cameron's film he made the character Tommy say that the Titanic was an Irish ship built by strong Irish hands. To anyone outside the UK it might seem a small matter, but it's like labelling a country that is trying to recover from a civil war and giving credit for a world renowned accomplishment to the opposite side. Like saying The Empire State Building was built by the Germans and it is their achievement. I have to admit the constant Irish music throughout the film was blatant bias towards the southern Irish. Reminds me of the 1953 film when they gave the lookout man an Irish accent and had the ship's band play Oh Danny Boy. The characters in Hollywood films can be so stereotype that is makes the story unbelievable or ridiculously bias. Too much stereotype.


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The same might be said of the way the Americans were depicted in ANTR. Especially "Molly" Brown. Although they got the "Molly" wrong, too, Kathy Bates' was much better in the 1997 movie.
 
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Is Disneyland wrong for showcasing "Great moments with Mr. Lincoln", a 5 minute theme park show where the 10 year old audience listens to an assassinated man discuss a bloody war that killed hundreds of thousands? - it's all in how you look at it.
False equivalence. Some things are obviously off-limits, while other things are in good taste. In some instances the line is blurred, sure, but at other times it`s clear as daylight. I think that building another Titanic is fine, as long as there are no icebergs or sinkings involved.
 

Harland Duzen

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I also thought, they should do something similar to the way the Cutty Sark or HMS Victory have been docked. Build a REPLICA of the RMS Titanic in a dry-dock or land-locked man-made lake, and aside from Boiler Rooms 1 - 4 which would have to include an electrical generator and / or water plant (because we need to preserve the enviroment) make everything as accurate as possible.

If we honest with ourselves we never get a 100% accurate Titanic that would be allowed to sail in open water as it's just to dangerous or ill omened. If we can build a ship permantly to be dry-docked and be treated as a REPLICA when you can be lead around and told the stories of those onboard, then that will be suitable.

Cutty_Sark_June_2014_pic.jpg

Image a REPLICA of Titanic that was dry-docked like this.
 
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Where's the dividing line, other than personal sensibilities? Whats the technical specification?
You`re right in saying that it`s subjective, but so is deciding whether or not it`s appropriate to jump-scare someone who`s had a quadruple bypass. Most people would however agree that it`s not appropriate to do that, and most people, I`m sure, would not think that building a Titanic amusement park is a good idea.

As I`m not Chinese though, I don`t know what their culture would deem as appropriate or not, but most westerners, if not a large percentage of British people would, I believe, find that distasteful. And since the Chinese had very little to do with the original Titanic, they ought to be even more mindful of what they`re doing when they`re culturally appropriating something that was the source of a great tragedy and misfortune for people when the ship sank (I don`t mind cultural appropriation when done in good taste).

Just because it`s hard to define what`s appropriate and what isn`t doesn`t mean that we as a society shouldn`t have any limits, IMO.
 

TimTurner

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Scaring someone, literally, to death, is not in the same category as offending their sense of taste.

Saying that most people would think that building a Titanic amusement park is in poor taste, well there are about 1.3 billion Chinese, and only about a third of that number of English speakers... so, I'd say most people would disagree. In fact, that means it is literally possible that there are more people in China who support the Titanic II, than have ever heard of Titanic in the English Speaking world - and in reality, it is reasonably safe to say, there are more supporters of Titanic II in China than there are people living in Britain.

I agree that society should have limits. But who sets what "appropriate taste" is? The fashion police? I would also point out that "we as a society" is Cultural Appropriation of China into "your" society. They have their own society with it's own values.
 

TimTurner

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Actually, it's just as true to say that adopting Titanic into "our" culture is just as much Cultural Appropriation. It was a different society with different people and values from "ours". We have no more right to appropriate Titanic than the Chinese do.
 

Harland Duzen

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The Chinese do have an obsession with British culture with it stretching to them making a fake replica english village named ''Thames Town''.

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Thames Town - Wikipedia

Fake English town in China complete with cobbled streets and red telephone boxes remains deserted | Daily Mail Online

When it comes to history, there were 8-10 Chinese 3rd Class Passengers and currently, it's believed one of them Fang Lang was the man Officer Lowe reluctenly rescued from a door /piece of grand- staircase, BUT it's not confirmed.
 
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Actually, it's just as true to say that adopting Titanic into "our" culture is just as much Cultural Appropriation. It was a different society with different people and values from "ours". We have no more right to appropriate Titanic than the Chinese do.
I don`t understand this part of your statement.
 
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Aaron_2016

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Western culture in 1912 would be I think considered just as foreign to us today and just as intriguing to any culture around the world. One could say the Titanic represented an entire era long forgotten by many today. A time of supreme elegance and high standards. There is something really wonderful and fascinating about those times that we can only look upon it as a foreign culture. This scene from My Fair Lady really sets the mood of the Titanic era.


English society at the 1912 Ascot race. Imagine Sir Cosmo and Lady Duff Gordon there. Also Mr and Mrs Ismay. His brother owned race horses so he might be there too. Rule 1 in English society: Do not express any emotion whatever. :)





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