Why didn't the Titanic's lookouts see the Californian?

[Jim Currie]

Jim,

Captain Lord's evidence at the USA Inquiry is not supported by your reply.

Captain Lord testified as follows:-

[Of Evans the wireless operator on The Californian]

"From what I have seen of him, he [Evans] is generally around about 10 o'clock in the morning,
and next day gives me reports of things that happen after midnight, very frequently ".

Obviously, you can't tell the Captain what happens after midnight if you go to bed at the time you suggest!

Neither would there be any point in Groves popping in to see Evans after the 8pm - 12 midnight watch if Evans wasn't still usually up after midnight!

Cheers,

Julian

That's what W/Os did back then, Julian. nowadays it is called Flexi-hours.
If they were expecting a Master or vessel-specific message or waiting for a vessel to enter or before it left the Marconi "grid" to receive a message they would wait up late to do so. If appropriately urgent they would deliver thereafter. Otherwise, routine traffic was delivered the next day. They loosely followed what was termed "Day-worker" hours. All crew were designated Day workers or Watchkeepers.

Captain Lord was simply remembering the occasions when Evans chose to work overtime and delivered messages to him when he, the captain, was in bed. The messages delivered to him at 10 am or any other time during Day Work hours would be delivered as they were received. For instance. If Lord had specifically told Evans to transmit a master to master message as soon as possible, and Evans knew the vessel in question would not be in range before 1 am then he would wait until that vessel was in range and transmit before turning in. There is no big conspiracy or mystery here, Julian.

Incidentally, Evans was in his bunk when Groves visited him. Groves was interested in wireless, not Evans

 

[Julian Atkins]

Hi Jim,

And was here me thinking you would now apologise to me instead of expecting an apology from me to you!

 

[Jim Currie]

Hi Jim,

And was here me thinking you would now apologise to me instead of expecting an apology from me to you!

Now then, Julian...why should I apologize for updating your understanding of how a ship's crew performs

 

[Cam Houseman]

*cough* Quiet as crickets now.

Anyway.
I learned that Captain Lord wanted Walter Lord, at the end of chapter 4 in the first addition, to have him fully dressed in his uniform during the sinking.

 

[Julian Atkins]

Hi Cam,

We know exactly what Captain Lord in later life and quite suddenly objected to of the film
ANTR, though he hadn't seen it himself, and the book ANTR was somewhat incidental and had been 'out' for a few years previously.

The usual claptrap is hawked over, but neither the dates or the substance of what caused Captain Lord to 'cross The Mersey' to insist upon a sudden interview with his professional association and it's General Secretary unannounced and without an appointment, and without disclosing to his son what he intended to do, is capable of easy extrapolation as to the date of the preview of the film ANTR in Liverpool in the cinemas.

We won't probably ever know the full story, but I don't myself believe either Leslie Harrison's account as to the reason for that first meeting between the 2 of them, or Captain Lord's son's account of the lead up to it.

I've described on another now locked thread my own view as to what happened, but I don't think it had anything to do with Walter Lord's book per se. It was the film. It must have been. Due to the timing and dates.

 

[Martin Cooper]

"The Maiden Voyage" was a real "eye opener" when I first read it. I had previously looked upon Smith as being a wronged and tragic heroic figure. That book changed all that.

The crying shame it is not all that well known a Titanic book and yet it has a ton of common sense in it and Marcus makes his arguments well.

Just out of interest Sam, did you ever have any correspondence with Geoffrey Marcus whilst he was alive ?

He also wrote a book a book about social, political and cultural life in Britain between Victoria's death and the start of WW1 called "Before the Lamp Went Out" which I've been trying to track down a copy of for years.

Hello Seumas.

'Before the lights went out' is available on ebay, I got one the other day for about £7.00.

Also there are copies of 'The maiden voyage' for about the same price, some maybe a little cheaper if you search.

Regards.

 

[Seumas]

Hello Seumas.

'Before the lights went out' is available on ebay, I got one the other day for about £7.00.

Regards.

Thank you kindly Martin, I will go and have a wee look

 

[Julian Atkins]

Just a point of reference, but Paul Lee in 'The Ship that Stood Still' is highly critical of Marcus' 'Maiden Voyage' so far as it relates to 'the Californian incident'.

 

[Seumas]

Just a point of reference, but Paul Lee in 'The Ship that Stood Still' is highly critical of Marcus' 'Maiden Voyage' so far as it relates to 'the Californian incident'.

Only a small part of "The Maiden Voyage" is about "the other ship".

The bulk of the book is more concerned about how the Titanic's fate came about and in particular analyses Edward Smith's decision making.

 

[Cam Houseman]

The bulk of the book is more concerned about how the Titanic's fate came about and in particular analyses Edward Smith's decision making.

Capt. Smith gets a lot of undeserved criticism, IMO.

Otherwise, is it a good book Seumas?

 

[Jim Currie]

While I admire Paul's information- gathering ability, his ideas on Californian are completely inaccurate. I have not read the book mentioned herein but I have read his paper " The Titanic and the Californian - A possible solution."
If his paper is anything to go by and the book repeats what is written in the paper, then he exhibits a complete lack of understanding as to the thinking process behind the design of a power driven vessel's masthead lights when two are carried. It also shows a complete lack of understanding regarding a boats stations - all hands on deck, use of lights on board a passenger ship.

​

 

[Samuel Halpern]

but Paul Lee in 'The Ship that Stood Still'

Huh? The Ship That Stood Still was written by Leslie Reade.

 

[Martin Cooper]

Capt. Smith gets a lot of undeserved criticism, IMO.

Otherwise, is it a good book Seumas?

It was WSL policy that Sunday was boat drill day, however, there was none done on this day. Instead, Smith and other senior officers decided to dress in their best uniforms and go walk about on a 'Captains inspection tour' to show off their best bib and tucker so that the 'toffs' could admire them. So NO boat drill was done on that Sunday.

And what about all the ice warnings?
Did Smith slow the ship down?
Did Smith go even further south?
After many complaints by the look outs of there being no glasses for them, did Smith make sure they were provided for them?
Did Smith provide extra lookouts, especially in the prow of the ship?

He also knew they were nearing the ice, so why was he not on the bridge?

Undeserved criticism????

 

[Martin Cooper]

While I admire Paul's information- gathering ability, his ideas on Californian are completely inaccurate. I have not read the book mentioned herein but I have read his paper " The Titanic and the Californian - A possible solution."
If his paper is anything to go by and the book repeats what is written in the paper, then he exhibits a complete lack of understanding as to the thinking process behind the design of a power driven vessel's masthead lights when two are carried. It also shows a complete lack of understanding regarding a boats stations - all hands on deck, use of lights on board a passenger ship.

​

Hello Captain Jim. It is nice to be able to comment again on ET, and I see that you are still keeping these, what you call 'whippersnappers' in order my friend, LOL.

I have been in the Doldrums for a few years because of my old desk top finally packing up on me, I lost everything, including all my contacts. I did get a lap top, but through not making a copy of my password, and not being unable to remember it, I was just a spectator following the discussions on ET, longing to join in and give you a little support as I used to do before the desk top conked out.

I eventually got in touch with Phil, and through his kindness and help, I am now able to make comments again. So it is with much gratitude that I say my thanks to Phil for his help.

I do hope that you are keeping well Jim, and that all is ok in your neck of the woods.

Best regards my friend.

Martin.

 

[Jim Currie]

It was WSL policy that Sunday was boat drill day, however, there was none done on this day. Instead, Smith and other senior officers decided to dress in their best uniforms and go walk about on a 'Captains inspection tour' to show off their best bib and tucker so that the 'toffs' could admire them. So NO boat drill was done on that Sunday.

And what about all the ice warnings?
Did Smith slow the ship down?
Did Smith go even further south?
After many complaints by the look outs of there being no glasses for them, did Smith make sure they were provided for them?
Did Smith provide extra lookouts, especially in the prow of the ship?

He also knew they were nearing the ice, so why was he not on the bridge?

Undeserved criticism????

Get your facts right, laddie.

1. There was no Boat and Fire drill that Sunday morning because one had been carried out less than a week earlier, and because there was a strong northerly wind blowing on the boat deck, starboard side.
2. Officers did not "dress in their best uniforms... rubbish! Have you any idea of uniform protocol? I think not.
3. All ice warnings indicated ice to the north of the course. Since normally, ice moves north and east, the warnings did not apply to the Titanic or ships to the southward of the last known position of the ice,
4. because of (3) above -there was no need to go further south or slow down at all.
5. There were no "complaints" about the lack of glasses.- just a request for them. I could just imagine how such a complaint would have been handled.
6. Bow lookouts are only effective in restricted visibility... the visibility that night was perfect.

Unless you are a fully qualified professional, you do not have enough knowledge to accurately judge a man as was Captain Smith. However, you are not alone...too many with similar knowledge limitations have publicly set themselves up as Judge and Jury.