Why didn't Titanic see Californian's Morse Lamps?

[Senan Molony]

Moore did not say he could SEE the Californian.
He was referring to where he estimated she would be - based on his knowledge of wireless reports and when he saw her later - at 7.30.

At no point does Moore say he has visuals on the Californian. If there was a ship there in daylight (4am) the T lifeboats would have gone to her. They headed instead for the ship they could see -Carpathia.

You are a fraud, George Behe, and I use that word advisedly.

 

[George Behe]

Hi, Senan!

I guess you'll have to judge the voltage for yourself.

Hope all is well with you and your family, old chap.

Take care, my friend.

All my best,

George

 

[George Behe]

Hi, Senan!

Well, Captain Moore estimated that Californian was the same distance north of the Carpathia as Mt. Temple was to the west of her (i.e. five or six miles.) Moore's meaning is clear, since he would have been unable to make an estimate like that if Californian had truly been 19 miles north of the disaster site (i.e. out of sight) at 6 a.m. like Captain Lord claimed.

All my best,

George

 

[Michael F. Koch]

Testimony by Groves, Moore, Spedden, Carpathia crew and Boxhall (I think it was him or possibly another Titanic officer) all place the Californian about 5-6 miles north of the lifeboats at approximately 6 am Californian time. Groves claimed the Carpathia went around the northern edge of the ice field and then south looking for Titanic's reported position. At 650 am...they saw Carpathia on the other side of the ice field due east about 5 miles away. Moore also agreed with this and Boxhall (I think it was him or maybe Rowe or Hutchison, one of Titanic's officers anyway), 2 crewmembers of the Carpathia and Spedden claim the ship that never moved in the night was indeed the Californian. Although, a few claimed the ship moved, it was obvious from Californian's testimony, she was just swinging around to starboard with the current as she had the helm hard-a-port with the engines were shut off. This would explain the appearance of the ship turning around and steaming west. In all, 16 of 20 witnessed said she didn't move. So in other words, Californian took about 40 minutes give or take a few to reach the same latitude as Titanic after she started up in the morning. Not to mention, some of the time would have been spent going around the ice field on the northern side and not heading south. This is pretty DANG good evidence IMHO that Californian was less than 10 miles away and even if she wasn't the bottom line is she didn't do anything. However, if she were 5-6 miles away and left when the first rocket went off, she could have gotten there no later than 2 am being conservative allowing time for her to navigate the bergs. Here are some links to this testimony: Groves' Testimony and Testimony of Others

Michael.

 

[Parks Stephenson]

George,

I was unaware that the Mount Temple had a visual on the Californian at first light...I have read through Moore's testimony, but all I saw were estimates. Perhaps you could quote the exact reference for me, so that my research could continue to benefit?

It's not that I prefer nighttime in favour of daylight sightings; believe me, I have had plenty of experience at sea to know the latter is much more reliable. However, I find no instance (aside from Daisy's testimony) where someone had eyes on the lights until a physical shape manifested itself at dawn. It is that evidence in which I will need your help to find.

Parks

 

[Parks Stephenson]

For Dave Gittins:

Each marine Morse lamp furnished for Titanic contained six miniature lamps, each rated at 5 c.p. The lamp actually flashed fairly rapidly, as a small amount of current heated the filaments at all times, and a resistance lamp was used in series to raise or lower the current flowing through the filaments. It should not be surprising that the Morse lamp was not rated for extended distances, as it was not conceived for communication to the visual horizon.

Parks

 

[Michael F. Koch]

Thanks for all your input why neither ship could make out the morse lamp signals! Seems like with their usefullness is limited distance wise and combined with the bright twlinking stars may have been undiscernable. Why all the George bashing? After all, he's just trying to get to the truth or as close as he can get as anyone else here is doing! No one will ever really know what happened, but looking at the testimony and trying to find the best answer is all any of us are really trying to do I think.

Michael.

 

[George Behe]

Hi, Parks!

>I was unaware that the Mount Temple had a visual >on the Californian at
>first light...I have read through Moore's >testimony, but all I saw were
>estimates.

Well then, let's assume that Californian was *eight* miles north of the Carpathia instead of just six. Even if Moore's 6-mile estimate was only a *rough* one, he was still capable of estimating that Californian and Mt. Temple were both *approximately* equidistant from the Carpathia. (We have to give the man a *little* credit.) Also, Moore knew that Californian was steaming westward at the same time Mt. Temple was situated due west of the Carpathia, (which he would have had no way of knowing if Californian had truly been out of sight over the horizon like Captain Lord claimed.)

>Perhaps you could quote the exact reference for >me, so that my research could continue to >benefit?

I quoted Moore's testimony in a recent thread with Senan, so it should be available via a search on the bulletin board. (I'm afraid I don't feel energetic enough to retype it.) It appears on pp. 778-779 of the Senate Inquiry.

>However, I find no instance (aside from Daisy's
>testimony) where someone had eyes on the lights >until a physical shape
>manifested itself at dawn. It is that evidence in >which I will need your help to find.

I'm afraid such evidence doesn't exist, old chap, because everyone in the lifeboats had already turned their attention away from the 'mystery ship' and begun concentrating on a sure thing -- the Carpathia. We're lucky that Captain Moore was keeping his eyes open that morning, though, and was able to shed light on the true identity of the 'mystery ship' that was north of the disaster site.

All my best,

George

 

[Michael F. Koch]

Here is Moore's testimony:

>

Michael.

 

[Michael F. Koch]

Sorry, wasn't able to cut and paste it for some reason. Here is the link to Moore's Testimony at the U.S. Senate Hearings: Moore's testimony

Michael.

 

[George Behe]

Thanks very much, Michael.

All my best,

George

 

[Tracy Smith]

I go away for a few days and I miss an exciting thread!

Thanks, Parks, Dave Gittins, and Senan for your comments. And thanks to the others for making it a lively discussion.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the Titanic discovery of 1985 place it further from the Californian than previously believed?

And can someone tell me what is the optimal distance (or the optimal distance at the time) for using Morse lamps? Seems that the two ships were too far away from each other for the lamps to have been of any practical use; too easily dismissed as flickering lights.

 

[Michael F. Koch]

George: You're welcome =-)

Tracy, the Californian may have lied about her position as her log book was conviently thrown out. The Californian given by numerous testimony was about 5-6 miles north of the Carpathia at 600 am before Californian started moving west to cross the northern end of the ice pack. As to the mystery ship theory, Boxhall claimed the ship he saw moved east and turned around and headed west although very slowly. 16 of 20 testimonys claimed she never moved. Californian's officers said the Californian was stationary but turning to starboard (facing east and turning south and finally west) as her helm was hard-a-port. So, Boxhall was certainly confused by the Californian swinging to starboard when he thought she was slowly steaming west. Meanwhile, the Californian claims the mystery ship was stationary and then had a big side out of the water (sinking?) before she steamed away to the southwest. They do however don't ever remember seeing only the green starboard light which would have meant she turned around and headed southwest. They only remember seeing both wing lights before they dissappeared. This makes sense since they were going under water. In other words, she saw Titanic. For sure, neither ships could have seen the same mystery ship since they both behaved differently to the crews of Californian and Titanic.

Michael.

 

[Parks Stephenson]

Well, unfortunately, the references which were so helpfully provided are not new to me. When Moore’s testimony is read in isolation, I can see where it may appear to be proof that the Californian was only 6 miles away from Titanic. However, when I put it in context with the rest of the testimony, I find several disconnects. Some may find the proof they need to identify the "mystery ship," but I have yet to see it. My stance is, as it was at the beginning of this conversation, that the identity of the "mystery ship" has yet to be proven.

Gore-bashing? I hope that comment was not directed at me. With the exception of one comment, I am merely defending my position in this debate. The one off-topic comment I made was when I took exception to George’s comparison of anyone who refuses to believe that Californian is the "mystery ship" to a bunch of Spiritualists who are beguiled by a crafty "medium." The argument concerning the Californian is much more complex than that and I trust George is not insinuating that others cannot have their questions about how the evidence fits together.

At any rate, this argument has taken on a familiar pattern with no promise of constructive results. I just don’t have the energy to cover the same ground over and over again. I thank those who tried their best to show me something new to consider. I wish that someone with a firm conviction about the Californian would publish their entire argument in the form of a book. Unfortunately, I have too many doubts to be that person. Any takers?

Parks

 

[Parks Stephenson]

Oops, a mistake in my last...that's George, not Gore.

Parks