Why don't the lists match up

  • Thread starter Adrienne Swartz
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Adrienne Swartz

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In my research, I am finding that there are slight variances in the passenger lists for all of my resources. I was wondering some of the theories on this. I am writing a paper on it and have some theories of my own, but I would like a few different viewpoints. Thank you
 
Jul 20, 2000
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Adrienne,

My researches suggest more than slight variances. Whose lists are you using? Some contain fewer errors than others. Also the errors are of several different types. If you want to pursue this please e-mail me!

Lester
 

Dave Gittins

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Mar 16, 2000
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Adrienne, remember to get hold of Debbie Beavis's book, Who Sailed on the Titanic.

Debbie has beavered away with the original records and her work demonstrates the difficulty of nailing everything down.
 

Lee Gilliland

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Feb 14, 2003
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There may be some additional confusion because there were a number of people travelling incognito - Sir Cosmo and Lady Duff Gordon, for example, traveling as Mr. and Mrs. Morgan.
 
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Adrienne Swartz

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Lester,
Well, my paper started out on the social class system that was on the Titanic. You know, who sailed in what class, the accomadations, how steerage was treated..etc. Well, in all of the books I was using and even the original NYT microfilm, the lists were off. Some names were there, others weren't I noticed this especially because I was researching Edith Corse Evans on the side and she wasn't on some lists. So I asked my professor what to do about this and he suggested I change my paper topic to finding out why they didn't match up. I have some theories like assumed names...the Navatrils and Duff Gordons...White Star Line trying not to look as bad...And miscommunication in reporting...The NYT being a big culprit. But I know there are other reasons, I just haven't gotten that far. Any help you could give would be greatly appreciated. I am using ET's list, the NYT's list, Walter Lord's list, and list from a few more recent Titanic books.
 
Jul 9, 2000
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Jul 20, 2000
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Hi Adrienne,

With reference to the NYT microfilm did the New York papers ever publish a full passenger list? Many first days lists were I understand horribly garbled survivor and casualty lists and reports of prominent passengers some of whom were not actually onboard. Many inaccurate informations were also published. - Use such lists with great care.

You mention Walter Lord's List. His list is White Star Final Passenger List; dated the 9th of May. Although this list contains errors provided you study it with care; it can form the base for an accurate list.

Specifically what other lists are you using? Are they repeats of the White Star or US Senate Lists or "complied lists". If the former my above comments stand. If latter then any errors are caused by mistakes and omissions made by those who complied the lists.

You say you are researching Edith Evans and found that her name was not on some lists. Specifically which lists?

Lester
 
Mar 18, 2000
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There is a 'compiled' crew list floating around the internet (and also in the book "Total Titanic") which was a comglomeration of every crew reference I could get my hands on. My master list contains the where and why of the names, but the copies floating around do not have these details.

I created the list pre-ET, as at that time crew lists were a bit hard to come by.

If it says "Denison", "McAuliffe" and "Sam Parks", it's probably a copy of my old one.
 
Jul 20, 2000
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Hi Bill,

Since you have made reference to Titanic's Crew as you are probably aware sometime ago it was discovered that there were errors in ET's Titanic Engine Room Crew List.

1] The name of Fireman Roland Hopgood was missing; while
2] The name and details of Greaser F. Gardner were found to be a fiction; the name not appearing as stated in the Crew Signing-on Sheets: MT 100/259; but having been uplifted from the US Senate Crew List where it appears in error. The correct name of the Greaser being Frederick Walter Godwin.

An examination of the Crew List compiled by Hermann Soeldner indicates a number of other errors; mostly of Crew who sailed using aliases. While several of these are known to ET; others are not. Known are that:

Fireman James Carter signed on as W. Ball; that
Fireman Sidney Frank Rutter sailed as S. Graves; and that
Fireman Samuel S. Williams sailed using his brother William's papers.
It is also noted that Thomas Hart' was not onboard. His papers were stolen. It is not known is who stole them and sailed and died using Hart's name.

The entry for 3rd Class Steward George Evans contains a note to the effect that he is named on Hermann Soeldner's List as Rowland Winser.

Apparently not known but recorded on Hermann's List are that:

Storekeeper CF Bird sailed as CF [on the Senate List as W.] Morgan; that
Bed Room Steward Thomas Kirkaldy sailed as T. Clark; that
Asst. Butcher Thomas Porteous sailed as T. Parker [he is on the Senate List as T. Barker]; that
Greaser M. Bryant sailed as M. Stafford; and that
Stenographer George Frederick Taylor sailed as George Frederick Turner;

Also according to Hermann's List there is Scullion G. King whose name may have been G. Hogan?

More recently it was discovered that Miss Wallis, stewardess should in fact be Miss Walsh, stewardess.

Bill, Can you add anything with regard to the "new" informations in Hermann's List?

Could you also detail the informations you have on: "Denison". My understanding is that the name Denison occurs in Marcus' The Maiden Voyage.

Lester
 
Mar 18, 2000
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>1] The name of Fireman Roland Hopgood was missing;

Hopgood's name appears on both the Senate list and the White Star list (as printed in "Titanic Conspiracy"). He would have been on the information I turned over to ET many years ago, but maybe someone had better information, to pull the listing?

>2] The name and details of Greaser F. Gardner were found to be a fiction; The correct name of the Greaser being Frederick Walter Godwin.

My notes agree with this.


>Bill, Can you add anything with regard to the "new" informations in Hermann's List?

Not really. Most of my research was based off of 'secondary' sources (mainly the Senate & White Star lists, augmented by quite a few books), and once ET got going, I pretty much stopped digging into the crew. What's here on ET, and done by other researchers since, is quite far beyond what I compiled.

Yes, Denison is mentioned in "Maiden Voyage", he is also mentioned in Stenson's "Titanic Voyager", the Lightoller biography. The name is NOT mentioned in Lightoller's autobiography (at least, not that I can find), though the specific event of meeting the pursers is. I suspect "Maiden Voyage" is the first occurance of the name, and Voyager just carried on the error.
 
Jul 20, 2000
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Hi Bill,

Thank you for the updates. Roland Hopgood appears on Hermann's List. I suspect that because there was also an R. Hosgood on the Crew that Hopgood was mistakenly deleted from the ET List. With the ET List having Gardner in error the numbers balance.

Regards,
Lester
 
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Adrienne Swartz

Guest
Hey Lester,
The list that doesn't contain Edith Evans is the one in The Titanic Conspiracy by Robin Gardiner and Dan Van Der Vat. It doesn't mention her at all. I want to say that there is another list, but I can't recall the list off the top of my head. As for NYT, they printed a list referred to as the complete passenger list from the White Star Line. It is dated April 17 or 18, 1912. I don't have my copy on hand right now so I couldn't tell you for sure which day it is, but it is stated to be a complete list according to them. How inaccurate it is, I don't really know. I'm not trying to create a list so I don't really care about how inaccurate the list is just as long as I can find enough inaccuracies for my paper. The only thing I am looking at is why they are inaccurate. In fact, the more inaccuracies the better because I have more evidence. The lists are my primary resources, but I am going to have to get Debbie Beavis's book for a secondary source. The only thing is that I want to form some of my own conclusions and theories first because I don't want to go off of someone else's, so I might wait to read it until after I have a lot of my paper done. It will be interesting to see how close I am. If you can suggest any other books, I would greatly appreciate it. I have enough lists, but I need some more secondary sources and our library is hopeless!
Thank You, Adrienne
 
Jul 20, 2000
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Adrienne,

I can only say do not go anywhere near the list in Gardiner and Van der Vat. It is very error prone.

Go back to the List in ANTR. It has problems, but as "the original" White Star List it is valuable. - All other lists stem in some form from it.

The main reasons the White Star List is inaccurate are passengers travelling under aliases and that names were not properly recorded. There are several reasons for this. In some cases names differ between the Southampton and Queenstown Lists and what is on the Passenger List. - There are also problems with the names of many of the Syrian passengers.

That aside White Star's 1st Class Passenger List [please use an old version of ANTR not the Illustrated edition] contains 324 names. We know that 1 passenger was double-listed.
Apart from the omission of the H&W Group and the bandsmen [all of whom held 2nd Class tickets] 2nd Class is OK.
For 3rd Class there are correctly 183 in the British section;
There are 3 too many in the non-British section. - 3 passengers were double listed; 1 was not onboard and 1 name has been omitted.
Names aside the Cherbourg and Queenstown sections have 102 and 113 names.

I hope that helps,
Lester
 
Jun 4, 2000
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Lester and Bill - thanks for the advice on which lists in print to use.

Ever since receiving it, I have been using Hermann Soldner's list as my main reference off line. I realise it doesn't have the degree of detail in Debbie Beavis' book, but was wondering how it compares in terms of accuracy in content? The same question goes for Lee Meredith's recent publication on Titanic passengers and crew. I have found a few bizarre inaccuracies, but in the main it's a well organised work.

Adrienne - apart from Debbie's Who Sailed on Titanic? and lists in other Titanic histories, here's a couple of other suggestions for you:

Soldner, Hermann. RMS Titanic Passenger and Crew List (10 April 1912 - 15 April 1912), self published, 2000, paperback, ISBN 3952171514 (I believe this is the Soldner list Lester is referring to, as it's through Lester I learnt of this 'book'
happy.gif
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Merideth, Lee. Titanic Names: a Complete List of the Passengers and Crew Rocklin Press, Historical Indexes Publishing, CA, 2002, paperback, ISBN 0962623776

All have their particular strengths (and weaknesses) and I'm interested in the opinions of those who've put considerable time into research of this area.

Thanks,
Fiona
 
Jul 20, 2000
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Hi Fiona,

Yes it is Hermann's [Passenger and] Crew List that I was referring to.

It is the most accurate list currently on offer.

I have recently heard of [but not as yet seen] Merideth's List.

Lester
 
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Amy WIlder

Guest
When I was working at Titanic: Ship of Dreams in Orlando, FL there was a glass etched wall with the passengers and crew on it. In third class there was a J. Dawson and many visitors were astonished to think that this could refer to the infamous but fictious Jack Dawson from the 1997 movie. Although employees were told that this was Joseph Dawson I have read other passenger list that don't contain the name at all. Am I to assume that J. Dawson was not aboard the Titanic or is it just too convient that this error showed up in this attraction (that I love by the way)

Amy
 
Jul 20, 2000
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Hi Amy,

Whoever included a J. Dawson as a 3rd Class passenger was mistaken. The only Dawson onboard Titanic was Joseph Dawson; who was a member of Titanic's Crew. - A trimmer. He is buried at Halifax.

Hope that helps,
Lester
 
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Adrienne Swartz

Guest
My paper is finally completed! WHEW! I just wanted to thank you all for your help and pointing me in the right direction!

Hoping for an A,
Adrienne
 

Hilary Popple

Member
May 28, 2003
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Lester
I'm new to the site and would just like to confirm that Greaser 'M Stafford' was definitely Albert Bryant (not M Bryant as it says in Hermann's list). He was my great-grandfather.
His brother Arthur was also on board - another Greaser - but to confuse matters further his name was A Morris!
 

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