Widener dinner party question

[Richard A. Krebes]

Did anyone who attended the Widner's dinner party in honor of E.J. Smith, and then survived the sinking, leave any detailed accounts of the party?
I'd love to find out at least a vague notion of what was talked about, what E.J. said, etc.

Richard K.

 

[Ben Thomas Sebastian Holme]

Hi Richard,

All I know is that, according to Marion Thayer they were NOT discussing the proximity of ice. She mentions that she was deeply engrossed in conversation with Mr. Widener and Maj. b*** on "other matters". This is from Michael Davie's book.
I think I'm right in saying that George Rosenshine and Maybelle Thorne attended the dinner. Perhaps she wrote an account?

Sorry I can't help more

Ben

 

[Charles Provost]

Ben: Could you please specify the source for that statement about Rosenshine and Thorne being assigned to the Widener table on the last night? I've personnally never heard such a story. But I guess it could be true, as Mrs. H. B. Harris recalled seeing more than 10 people, maybe up to 12, at Captain Smith's table.

I've always imagined George Rosenshine and Maybelle Thorne as secret people, but it might not have been the case.

I don't believe Mrs. Thorne ever wrote an account. Newspaper interviews, perhaps.

Regards,

Charles

 

[Charles Provost]

Ben: Could you please specify the source for that statement about Rosenshine and Thorne being assigned to the Widener table on the last night? I've personally never heard such a story. But I guess it could be true, as Mrs. H. B. Harris recalled seeing more than 10 people, maybe up to 12, at Captain Smith's table.

I've always imagined George Rosenshine and Maybelle Thorne as secret people, but it might not have been the case.

I don't believe Mrs. Thorne ever wrote an account. Newspaper interviews, perhaps.

Regards,

Charles

 

[Ben Thomas Sebastian Holme]

Hi Charles,

I got my source from Charles Stengel's testimony at the senate enquiry.

SMITH: "Was there any evidence of intoxication among the officers or crew that night?"

STENGEL: "No sir. I have a distinct recollection of a Mrs. Thorne stating, while talking about the captain being to dinner, that she was in that party, and she said, "I was in that party and the captain did not drink a drop." He smoked two cigars, that was all, and left the dining room about 10 o'clock.

Hope this helps

Ben

 

[Charles Provost]

Hello Ben, thank you for the information. Curiously, I must have jumped over that detail while reading Mr. Stengel's testimony. Thanks again.

I wonder why Rosenshine/Thorne did not enter in the popular story of the “Widener party” as well as the other guests. Obviously because they do not represent the archetype of the “rich and famous” people that were on the ship on that fateful voyage. The Thayers, the Wideners and Major b*** are well known to us, and that mainly because we look at chapters such as the amount of money they worth, or the social position they occupy.

It's a pity that we know so little about the whereabouts of Maybelle Thorne and George Rosenshine on board the ship. I think I'm right in saying that without Stengel's statements, we wouldn't know anything about their life on the Titanic. I'd like to be corrected if I'm wrong.

Regards,

Charles

 

[Ben Thomas Sebastian Holme]

Hi Charles,

Glad to be able to help. I share you're frustration about the low profile they apparently kept. Perhaps they made loads of friends on board, but none/few of them survived. At dinner, they may have been in deep conversation with the captain, while the others were talking about the Pennsylvanian countryside! It's a pity we may never know.
I'm afraid I know nothing of their movements on board outside Stengel's testimony.
Do you know of any photo of George/Maybelle?
Anyone?

Glad I could help
Regards

Ben

 

[Daniel Rosenshine]

Hello Guys,

I hadn't missed the Thorne mention in Stengel's testimony, but I had always believed that Rosenshine/Thorne simply dined in the restaurant. Too many people have claimed to be part of that dinner, it's almost like having being in a boat with Mrs. Astor. Thus I do not think that Thorne was actually part of the 8 (or more) people at the table, they may however have sat very close to the table.

If one had seen the plan for the restaurant, you can see that there are no tables capable of accommodating 8 people. 6 so far as I saw is the maximum. There are however two tables that 'I' believe may have been merged together to accommodate the 8 people, but no more that 8 could fit onto it.

I think that Harris and Futrelle both knew the Thorne's, but I have never read any of their accounts that say that, but I know that there are either accounts or newspaper articles that say that. I would imagine that the Thornes were a very 'secret' couple and I doubt they made heaps of friends aboard.

Daniel.

 

[Ben Thomas Sebastian Holme]

Hi Daniel,

It seems to me that Maybelle Thorne made it pretty clear she was dining with the Wideners. Stengel quotes her as saying "I was in that party". I don't think someone on a nearby table would bother to notice the number of cigars Smith smoked even if it was clear he wasn't drinking.
However, Stengel may well have misquoted her.

Also, a table for 8 doesn't appear sufficiant even for the well-known diners. This is my understanding of who was present.

1, George D. Widener
2, Eleanor Widener
3, Harry Widener
4, John B. Thayer
5, Marian Thayer
6, Capt. Smith
7, Maj. b***
8, William Carter
9, Lucile Carter

I have read several times that Clarence Moore was a guest. This was not the case.
Also, Daisy Minahan, in her affidavit mentions there being, "perhaps a dozen men and three women". If this is the case, it seems a possibility that the two Williams men were present as he was a prominent Philadelphian (please correct me if I'm wrong)
She may have meant half a dozen, in which case I'm sure you're right.

Thanks for the info on their acquaintance with Harris/Futrelle

Regards

Ben

 

[Randy Bryan Bigham]

Ben,

Might not Frank Millet have also been among this group? He was close with Maj. b***. In your opinion, who were the others - apart from the Williamses - if the number of men was indeed 12? It would be interesting to have an idea of who all might have been with this group if it was a larger party than thought.

I am disappointed to learn that only three women glittered in this sea of dinner jackets. I bet they enjoyed the attention, though!

I've always thought an artist ought to attempt a depiction of this happy though, in retrospect, tragic band of merry-makers. I think of that party for Captain Smith as a kind of unwitting farewell, both romantic and macabre, to Titanic. It might even be seen more philosophically as a farewell to an era. One thing for sure, it was a farewell to life for most everyone there.

Randy

 

[Ben Thomas Sebastian Holme]

Hi Randy,

In answer to your first question, no, Millet was not at the Widener dinner party. In his testimony, steward F. Dent Ray stated that he served b***, Moore, Millet, and the Clarks on their assigned table in the main dining saloon. On April 14th, the only people who were down to dinner i.e on their table in the Saloon were Clarence Moore and Francis Millet who were dining together.
As far as the restaurant/party goes, apart from Duane and R.N Williams I would include Rosenshine and Thorne making a fourth woman.
Possibly William C. Dulles also, as he was from Philadelphia. All the others I would take to be single men from New York (Foreman, Natsch, Nicholson??) if indeed there were twelve men.

I think a painting of the dinner party would be a great depiction to sum up the elegance and good ambience on board Titanic. I would also include the surrounding tables (Harris, Duff-Gordon, Douglas, Minahan etc). I find Mrs. Walter Douglas' observation that every man in the room perished apart from Cosmo D-F, Ismay and Carter.
The idea of coming from that level of elegance to an icy death 4 hours later is a surreal and macarbre thought.

Hope this helps

Regards
Ben

 

[Charles Provost]

Daniel: I have to agree with Ben. Mrs. Thorne was certainly part of the group; her statement is clear on that. On the other hand, there is no evidence that Mr. Rosenshine was also in that party. I believe they wanted to keep their liaison as secret as possible, if I'm not mistaken. Mrs. Thorne could have been invited personally by Mr. and Mrs. Widener; George Rosenshine dining alone or with friends in the dining room.

I'm sure that the tables weren't a problem. The stewards were prepared for this. They might have joined two or more tables. (Two tables of 6 must do it)

The guests we can confirm so far are:

1. Captain Smith
2. George Widener
3. Eleanor Widener
4. Harry Widener
5. John B. Thayer
6. Marian Thayer
7. William Carter
8. Lucile Carter
9. Major b***
10. Maybelle Thorne

That's a total of 10 people to accomodate.

Ben: It's dangerous to guess who were the other people sitting at the dinner party just because they are prominent Philadelphians. I don't believe that the Wideners only wished to have people from Philadelphia at their table. The guests were evidently chosen because they were acquaintances of the Wideners on the ship.

I would also like to see a good representation of that dinner party.

Does anyone know if Mrs. Widener ever wrote something interesting about her experiences on the Titanic? It certainly would help us with our questions.

Regards,

Charles

PS. I have never seen photographs of Mr. Rosenshine and Mrs. Thorne. Phil Gowan or Mike Findlay could possibly help you.

 

[Phillip Gowan]

Well, I have a photo of "a" Gertrude Thorne that looked very promising--but unfortunately she turned out not to be the Titanic woman. She was a member of the wealthy Kemmerer family of Pennsylvania and was about the right age and lived in New York City. But some time ago Brian Meister and I contacted her living family members/got copies of her (and her husband's) obituary and determined that in all likelihood she was not the "Titanic" passenger.

Phillip

 

[Ben Thomas Sebastian Holme]

I had a look at the THS website and it appears one of the back issues has an article on George Rosenshine. That may include a pic, but at $20.00 it's a bit risky.

Ben

 

[Chris Dohany]

Mr. Rosenshine appears in a group photo that is on display at the THS Museum in Indian River, Mass. I would imagine that the Commutator piece includes at least this picture.